OK, thanks David. You, Ed Sutton, and others are really validating my diagnostic skills. I really appreciate your sharing knowledge acquired through years of experience that I haven¹t had. I also particularly appreciate your comments about what a sensitive pianist hears and feels ‹ something often lost sight of. You may remember me as the pianist at the Anaheim Convention 2008 who thoroughly enjoyed playing the Steingraeber pianos in your booth, and we discussed the desirability of approaching a pure fifth in tuning? The point is, my challenge now is to translate what I sense as a pianist into a technician¹s understanding and skill. I understand your jack button-to-stop distance explanation completely. Early on, I DID correct about a 1/2 dozen jack-to-knuckle alignments in different registers (all were way too far behind the knuckle), and, yes, I perceived that the knocking sound was significantly diminished, almost alleviated, in these notes. I came to the list with my inquiry because I didn¹t want to ³waste² time regulating if I needed to change parts or, worst case, the noise was somehow inherent in these actions (this seemed unlikely, IMHO). But now you¹ve got me thinking that, before replacing jack buttons or other parts, perhaps I should try regulating one of these pianos to see if that alleviates the noise to an acceptable level for a practice room instrument. Especially since I¹ve already had some success with limited trials. I¹m really curious to see if less distance traveled means significantly less noise. Rep springs seemed to be pretty much in the ballpark, but I¹ll have a look again. Regarding Tom Servinsky¹s suggestion that knuckles can play a role in noisemaking: I find merit in this, but had already dismissed it as the primary source of my noise problem because of the dynamics of the piano action, i.e., the jack is already in contact with the knuckle and does not travel any considerable distance (absolutely miniscule) directly to the knuckle before striking it. Rather it moves along the knuckle. I will say I did find the knuckles very hard and shiny black (I assume graphite?). With finger contortions, I took the key out of play and operated the wippen by hand from underneath so that it hit a slightly lifted hammer/shank (I artificially created vertical distance between jack top and knuckle). Bingo, there was a distinct knock/click as the top of the jack hit the knuckle! I was able to alleviate some of this by using a brass brush on the knuckle. However, I ultimately concluded that the jack-to-knuckle vertical contact was not the source of the sound I was hearing when the piano was played because, in a properly regulated piano (or one close to properly regulated), there is virtually no space, i.e., lost motion, between the top of the jack and the bottom of the knuckle. Furthermore, noise caused by top-of-jack-to-knuckle contact would occur when the key is depressed, not released. The problem I described happens upon key release (even partial ‹ just enough for the jack to return under the knuckle for repetition). So that brings us back to the jack regulating button hitting its stop! THANK YOU! to all who are contributing to this thread. I¹m learning a lot! Any further thoughts are truly welcomed. I¹ll provide an update at some point once I¹ve solved the problem. -- Paul Milesi Registered Piano Technician (RPT) Piano Technicians Guild (202) 667-3136 (202) 246-3136 Cell E-mail: paul at pmpiano.com Website: http://www.pmpiano.com Address: 3000 7th Street NE, Apt. 204 Washington, DC 20017-1402 From: David Andersen <david at davidandersenpianos.com> Reply-To: <pianotech at ptg.org> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:16:18 -0700 To: <pianotech at ptg.org> Subject: Re: [pianotech] Young Chang & Weber Grands: ActionClicking/KnockingUpon Quick Key Release Yes, probably too hard, but also too far away from the button after escapement at full key travel---it makes a "pock" sound. It happens on all grand actions to a certain degree when the jack position moves too far back. Simply bring the back edge of the jack slightly proximal (forward) from the back edge of the knuckle core, make sure the note isn't "cheating," and do a test blow. The noise will disappear or be greatly diminished. Also, the repetition spring must be regulated properly---not too weak or strong. Any sensitive player will hear and feel the "pock" sound on a soft blow. I have been a wizard and a hero to players many times by simply doing a simple procedure that nobody ever suggested before: regulating the jack position. I've had so-called top techs tell me "it's just normal action noise" in response to my questions and comments. No, it's not. Actions need to be regulated. The aluminum rails magnify the noise, IMO. AND--Servinsky's right; many times the knuckle core can make noise somehow. Wierd but true. Hope this helps. David Andersen > I agree that the back rail felt did seem rather hard/dense when I tested the > keys. But that¹s not what I¹m hearing, because, as stated in my original > description of the problem, I hear it even when the key is only partially > release, i.e., the back of the key isn¹t even touching the back rail cloth. I > believe Ed Sutton in the CAUT list hit the nail on the head, confirming my own > suspicion, that it is the jack regulating buttons that are too hard. -Paul > -- > Paul Milesi > > > > From: William Truitt <surfdog at metrocast.net> > Reply-To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:04:33 -0400 > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Young Chang & Weber Grands: > ActionClicking/KnockingUpon Quick Key Release > > I¹m with Joe Goss on this one. The back rails on these pianos can tend to be > noisy, because the keybeds themselves can resonate more that the average bear. > So anything you can do in the way of non-compacted back rail felt is a plus. > > Will Truitt > On Behalf Of Joe Goss > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 12:17 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Young Chang & Weber Grands: > ActionClicking/KnockingUpon Quick Key Release > Hi, > > Have you checked the back rail cloth and the way it is glued down? > > Joe Goss BSMusEd MMusEd RPT > imatunr at srvinet.com > www.mothergoosetools.com <http://www.mothergoosetools.com> > <http://www.mothergoosetools.com> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Tom Driscoll <mailto:tomtuner at verizon.net> >> >> Paul, >> >> Ditto to the comments so far. I had a client just yesterday with a Samick-10 >> year old grand. Same symptom. This time it was not the returning jack >> punching which I have found to be a culprit over the years.Sometimes worn >> -over eased balance rail holes can contribute to noisy return, but not the >> case with this Samick. >> >> I needled a sample knuckle with some improvement (After tightening screws of >> course) Removed a whippen and needled the whip cushion on the same note . >> >> noise was diminished but to my beginning pianist client even with >> improvement the piano is considered unplayable. She has decided to practice >> on a Yamaha GH1 that was part of her new home purchase because it does not >> make this noise. It does however sound like a banjo that has been outside >> for two years. >> >> I digress here, but I was called to tune both with her intent to sell the >> Samick (In this case superior to the GH1 in every way) because it had a small >> chip in one keytop. I explained about the tone-tuning instability of the GH1 >> and suggested that the GH1 would be the piano to sell and lets not tune it >> until the weather changes.Here in New England the tenor on these will go 30 >> cents wild when a cloud passes overhead. >> >> I think she considers the Yamaha to be the better piano because the teacher >> likes it and I can't completely cure the noise in the Samick. (the teacher is >> a very nice and has me tune her upright every 10 years--No kidding) >> >> A day in the life. >> >> Tom Driscoll >> >> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: pmc033 at earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> Hi, Paul: >>> >>> I agree with Tom about the knuckles, but you might also look at the >>> jack rest cushions. They get compacted and become noisy. In some of these, >>> I had to needle them with a chopstick voicing tool. Once I actually had to >>> replace them with (yikes!) butt felt squares. You can see if the problem is >>> those rest felts by flicking the jack tips. If they make that sound, you >>> found your culprit. The sound will reverberate with the help of the >>> aluminum rail. >>> >>> Have fun. >>> >>> Paul McCloud >>> >>> San Diego >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: Paul Milesi <mailto:paul at pmpiano.com> >>>> >>>> To: PTG Pianotech List <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org> >>>> >>>> Sent: 10/04/2009 1:07:53 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: [pianotech] Young Chang & Weber Grands: Action >>>> Clicking/KnockingUpon Quick Key Release >>>> >>>> >>>> I am now responsible for servicing three 1997 Weber grands at Howard U, >>>> ranging in size from the 4¹11² WG-50 to WG-57 (5¹7²) and WG-60 (6¹1²). >>>> These three are now in pretty good shape overall, but need regulation. >>>> There are others on campus I haven¹t seen yet, but have heard they¹re in >>>> bad shape. >>>> >>>> Tonight I went to a hotel which is a private client of mine and re-visited >>>> a 5¹2² Young Chang G-157 for the first time in quite a long while. I was >>>> struck by the similarities -- same problems I¹m having with the Webers, >>>> which my research had told me were made by Young Chang in Inchon, South >>>> Korea. >>>> >>>> All these pianos have a ³noisy² action! At first I thought it might be >>>> worn key bushings or loose wippen or hammer flange screws. But I¹ve now >>>> taken the time to eliminate the key and the flanges. The noise appears to >>>> be either (1) the repetition or jack hitting the knuckle; or (2) the jack >>>> regulating button hitting the stop. The knocking/clicking occurs when any >>>> key is released quickly, but not even necessarily all the way up. I >>>> believe it happens when the key is released enough to let the jack return. >>>> I¹m now wondering if a third possibility is the spring in the little hole >>>> of the jack? If so, what¹s the fix? >>>> >>>> Please, this is driving me crazy! As a pianist and technician, I want to >>>> understand what¹s happening here, and this is frustrating me. I believe >>>> these pianos can be regulated to make them a lot better, satisfactory >>>> practice instruments, but before I waste a lot of time, I¹m wondering if >>>> this problem is somehow endemic to these instruments? Can this noise on >>>> every key be alleviated? Does it have anything to do with aluminum rails? >>>> HELP! >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Paul >>>> -- >>>> Paul Milesi >>>> Registered Piano Technician (RPT) >>>> Piano Technicians Guild >>>> (202 ) 667-3136 >>>> (202) 246-3136 Cell >>>> E-mail: paul at pmpiano.com >>>> Website: http://www.pmpiano.com >>>> >>>> Address: >>>> 3000 7th Street NE, Apt. 204 >>>> Washington, DC 20017-1402 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >>> Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2412 - Release Date: 10/03/09 >>> 18:34:00 >> >> >> >> >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> >> Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/04/09 >> 06:20:00 >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20091004/e8661eff/attachment-0001.htm>
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