Real Customizing of a piano

[Fenton Murray]

Thanks Dave,
I don't understand 'sometimes the bass
end tensions are lowered somewhat, ' could you explain?
Fenton
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: Real Customizing of a piano


>I think Del is right: it really starts with the scale.  The scale suggests
> the weight of the soundboard (along with the rim, i.e., heavier rim means
> you can make a lighter soundboard), the scale and soundboard suggest the
> style and weight of the hammer, though you can clearly make a choice
> (sometimes a bad one) as some companies, in my opinion, do.  Put them
> together and therein lies the character of the piano. I don't think it's
> anything magical or mysterious or something hidden in a small vile of 
> fairy
> dust unique to each manufacturer and sprinkled secretly onto the piano in
> the middle of the night.  It might be fun to think it's magical and
> mysterious, but it isn't.  Take a Steinway and two other makers of pianos
> who basically have the same style rim--let's say heavy, bent hardwood and
> bellyrail; whose plates allow the same bridge layout and scale; move that
> Steinway soundboard to any of those other two and along with it the set of
> hammers and I think you will be hard pressed (little hammer joke hidden
> there) to tell any difference.  The devil is in the details, of course, 
> and
> the changes being made to these pianos that have prompted so much 
> discussion
> are, in my view, designed to accomplish three main things.  First, a more
> predictable outcome by removing most of the dependence on the
> unpredictability both in the short and long term of spruce panel
> compression.  Second, a scale that creates a unified instrument from top 
> to
> bottom and a soundboard that responds adequately and smoothly to the
> changing needs from low frequency to high frequency.  Third, a controlled
> balance between power and sustain, two aspects which are somewhat at odds.
> Everything else is really subsumed under those three headings, at least as 
> I
> see it.
>
> Back to the original point about the scale.  Probably more can be done to
> change the character of a piano by changing the scale than anything else.
> Years ago I recall a string maker who offered to rescale pianos complete 
> as
> part of their service.  Their tendency was to simply push up the tensions 
> by
> a fair amount.  The results were often quite poor.  Why?  Imagine an old
> Steinway soundboard, now a bit weaker than it was.  Load it up with a 
> higher
> tension scale.  That old somewhat tired board can't handle that.  It can
> barely handle the original scale anymore.  The energy transfer from the
> higher tension scale tends to overwhelm it.  It gets louder as the board
> wants to move more easily when energy is imparted to it.  But it's also 
> tied
> down more--unequal springs.  The result: a real percussive and choked 
> sound.
> If anything, to maintain some equilibrium, the scale (or bearing) should
> have been backed off a bit (of course, usually a collapsing crown
> accomplishes that for you--less bearing that is).  Anyway, I am 
> digressing.
>
>
> The scale changes being made on many of these redesigns are not 
> significant
> in this way.  More, they are smoothed out and balanced, sometimes the bass
> end tensions are lowered somewhat, and the relationship between core and
> wrap dimensions are changed.  But the overall scale tensions remains 
> roughly
> the same.  All other changes are adopted in an attempt to unify and 
> balance
> that tone building tripartite of scale, soundboard and hammer.  It's a
> beautiful and simple concept, and one which seems to have been forgotten.
>
> But the most important thing:  3 under par on the back nine today, oh 
> yeah!
>
> David Love
> davidlovepianos at comcast.net
> www.davidlovepianos.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Fenton Murray
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 1:21 PM
> To: Pianotech List
> Subject: Re: Real Customizing of a piano
>
> Thanks Dave,
> What's probably more important to me than identifying, as I originally 
> made
> point to, or agreeing whether there is or is not 'the Steinway sound', is
> identifying specific points within that (or any) piano's sound that are
> buried deep in the belly, and then learning how to manipulate and control
> and ultimately improve them. This is probably a much better direction for
> this thread. There is so much collective experience on this subject with 
> in
> the list, I just love it when the tap opens up.
> As you said " I think that if someone were to line up 30 Steinways from
> their customer base and, not knowing that they were all Steinway, was 
> asked
> to identify the maker of each one, the odds of them saying Steinway 30 
> times
> would be somewhere between slim and none--and Slim's on vacation as the
> saying goes. "
> Certainly true, I mean with hundreds of brands, Slim's on vacation. 
> There's
> a red available in a little winery down south in San Miguel that's about
> $25. a bottle, a Barbera, I like to get a bottle when I'm down there, then
> we go to Morro Bay and have it on the beach with some BBQ. Gotta have that
> Barbera, now, if you slipped me a bottle of Thunderbird and put the other
> label on, I think I'd now. But, Steinway's are no way as consistent as 
> this
> wine. Guess I made your point.
> Fenton
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>
> To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 1:46 PM
> Subject: RE: Real Customizing of a piano
>
>
>> To get back to Fenton's original question I think the difficulty in
>> claiming
>> that we can identify a "Steinway" sound is that we don't really have the
>> double blind study with a variety of pianos in various states to
>> demonstrate
>> whether we really can or can't.  I find Steinway pianos producing all
>> sorts
>> of variety of tone depending for the most part on the condition of the
>> board
>> and also the type and/or condition of the hammers.  I've pulled off hard
>> pressed hammers for customers who claimed that it didn't produce a
>> "Steinway" sound.  I've also encountered soundboard responses that defy
>> any
>> maker's identity.  It's also true that customer's identification of and
>> requests for the "Steinway" sound are as varied as the tone that the
>> pianos
>> actually produce under various conditions.
>>
>> We may have a mental concept of what a Steinway sound is and shoot for
>> that
>> accepting the best we can get depending on what the state of affairs is
>> with
>> the piano in general.  I would presume that concept is taken from what we
>> liked the best (which may vary from tech to tech) and so aim for that as
>> some model.  Even then, the model we conceive of is fleeting and changes
>> as
>> soon as we begin to recognize just what any particular piano might or
>> might
>> not deliver.  I think that if someone were to line up 30 Steinways from
>> their customer base and, not knowing that they were all Steinway, was
>> asked
>> to identify the maker of each one, the odds of them saying Steinway 30
>> times
>> would be somewhere between slim and none--and Slim's on vacation as the
>> saying goes.  At least that's my hypothesis.  Now if someone wants to set
>> up
>> a double blind study to test that hypothesis, I'll be happy to put in a
>> good
>> word on the grant proposal.
>>
>> As Ron suggests, what's great in all this is the idea of better control
>> over
>> outcomes (and nuances), targeting a very specific tonal model, and
>> choosing
>> a consistent set of components to achieve that on a consistent basis. 
>> For
>> me, scale and soundboard design issues are really the most interesting
>> thing
>> happening in piano technology right now with the greatest potential for
>> redefining how we look at the instrument itself.
>>
>> David Love
>> davidlovepianos at comcast.net
>> www.davidlovepianos.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Ron Nossaman
>> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 12:19 PM
>> To: Pianotech List
>> Subject: Re: Real Customizing of a piano
>>
>>
>>
>>> Just wait until my 6'4" Knabe is done with a modified (Steinway like
>> scale)
>>> and a bunch of other changes.  A III or Knabe?  Only the decal knows for
>>> sure.
>>>
>>> David Love
>>
>>
>> There's a 5'8" or thereabouts Knabe player in my shop waiting
>> for me to finish the school related projects and get back to
>> it, that so far, with the old thoroughly worn out action, has
>> a sound I think any new M would be proud of. This is just way
>> cool stuff.
>> Ron N
>>
>>
>>
>>
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