OT Political - {my last word}

[David Love]

Conrad:

I do not trust most websites at all and that's where most of this
rumormongering comes from.  The internet is replete with all kinds of
garbage--remember the Clintons murdering Vince Foster?  I have read
Kerry's testimony and if you read it in full, not just the excerpts used
by the Swift Boat Vets, it makes more sense in context.  I think what he
did was important in bringing to light the horrors of an illegal war.
It was certainly important enough for Nixon to try and use his dirty
tricks team to destroy Kerry--that alone gives him credibility in my
eyes.  By the way, all of these ridiculous claims don't seem to have
hurt his relationship with John McCain.


The following was published on factcheck.org as it researched the claims
Kerrys alleged traitorous behavior.  Also recall that Kerry's testimony
came several years after My Lai and one month after the conviction of
Lt. Calley.  While the treatment of Vietnam Vets by the American public
was regrettable and undeserved, you can hardly blame Kerry for that.
Attitudes about the war were already well established by then.: 

...And since Kerry testified, ample evidence of other atrocities has
come to light:

Son Thang: In 1998, for example, Marine Corps veteran Gary D. Solis
published the book Son Thang: An American War Crime describing the
court-martial of four US Marines for the apparently unprovoked killing
16 women and children on the night of February 19, 1970 in a hamlet
about 20 miles south of Danang. The four Marines testified that they
were under orders by their patrol leader to shoot the villagers. A young
Oliver North appeared as a character witness and helped acquit the
leader of all charges, but three were convicted.

Tiger Force:  The Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a
series published in October, 2003 reporting that atrocities were
committed by an elite US Army "Tiger Force" unit that the Blade said
killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage in
1967. "Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners
were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for
souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for
their gold fillings," the Blade reported. "Investigators concluded that
18 soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to
dereliction of duty. But no one was charged."

"Hundreds" of others: In December 2003 The New York Times quoted
Nicholas Turse, a doctoral candidate at Columbia University who has been
studying government archives, as saying the records are filled with
accounts of atrocities similar to those described by the Toledo Blade
series. "I stumbled across the incidents The Blade reported," Turse was
quoted as saying. "I read through that case a year, year and a half ago,
and it really didn't stand out. There was nothing that made it stand out
from anything else. That's the scary thing. It was just one of
hundreds."
"Exact Same Stories": Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on
Vietnam, says he's heard many veterans describe atrocities just like
those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told
FactCheck.org that since 1978 he's interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in
depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. "I have heard
the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over," he said.
"Wars produce atrocities.  Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a
particularly horrific number of atrocities.  That some individual
soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam
shouldn't really surprise anyone."


David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 

-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Conrad Hoffsommer
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:18 PM
To: Pianotech
Subject: RE: OT Political - {my last word}


David,

Speaking out politically is WAY different than my norm, and the way this

eternal campaign has polarised the country will probably lose me some 
friends on this list, but I feel I must - please indulge me this last
time.

I'm not Carl, but _I_ do not need to check websites to determine Kerry's

culpability, but I may dig into my old seabag, pull out my Bluejacket's 
Manual and rely on my first hand experience of the effects of Kerry.

If you really still trust websites at this point, perhaps you should 
re-read Kerry's own words during his Senate testimony, and also
afterwards, 
where he admits participating in the same atrocities which he said were 
happening.  Or... did he say he was just reporting what other vets had
told 
him.  Oh... that's right... he said both.  Which version was purgery?

Since I was in the area at the time (Tonkin Gulf) and in the same 
organization (US Navy '67-'73) and trying to live under the same rules 
(UCMJ) [Uniform Code of Military Justice], let me try to help you with
you 
some of the military rules with regard to his traitorous activities.

Whilst Kerry was still a commissioned officer and ostensibly bound by
the 
UCMJ, he visited with members of the Viet Cong in Paris.  How a
Lieutenant 
(Paygrade O-2or3 -- i.e. next to the bottom of officer ranks since
Ensign 
was routinely skipped)  thought he could effect peace, who knows?
However, 
there is a term called "consorting with the enemy".  In a war, the idea 
generally is that, if you meet an enemy, you do all you can to kill him.

It's brutal, but that IS what war IS. {Note to Bill Clinton - there's
that 
word again}  As an officer, it is your sworn DUTY to do that and lead 
others to do the same. You don't generally sit down to croissants and 
caviar with the enemy unless you are a general, admiral or head of 
state.  Money talks, I suppose, as Saddam knew in his dealings with the 
same multiple UN members which Kerry thinks he'd get as allies.

I recall several times in my military career having these things drilled

into my head, so I don't need to consult a website to tell me that, if I
as 
a 2nd class petty officer (only E-5 or middle of non-commissioned
officers, 
having turned down E-6 opportunities to return to civilian life) had
done 
the same thing, I would still be in Fort Leavenworth for it, if not in
an 
unmarked grave.

How good was he for the morale of troops/sailors in those years?  He 
certainly didn't make any points with me or my shipmates.  In the spring
of 
1970, when my ship got back from it's tour of duty in the war zone -
with 
_IT'S_ current mission accomplished and signs celebrating that fact - I
did 
a lot of traveling around southern and, later, northern California.  I
went 
to concerts at Dorothy Chandler Pavilion (free or at a discount), 
hitchhiked, went to movies and church and got invited into strangers
homes 
for home cooked meals, even got some dates after those meals.  ALL WHILE
IN 
UNIFORM.

In the fall of 1972, when I got back from my second WestPac "cruise", 
sailors were, by that time, again allowed to grow beards and have (even 
encouraged to have) civilian clothes onboard and allowed (even
encouraged) 
to go on "liberty" in civvies.    WHY?  Because, by then, people were 
shouting the "baby killer' and other phrases which Kerry had made so 
popular in 1971.

Being IN DANGER while wearing your uniform IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY is NOT
good 
for morale!  Having a long hair wig to escape military haircut
detection, 
and getting spat upon for defending your country is NOT good for morale
(I 
did and I was)!   _Trust me_,   not some New York Times/CBS fabrifacts.
It 
took me 20 years before I felt comfortable even joining the VFW.  I lay 
that sputum in my face directly on Kerry's doorstep. His statements were

not a little over the top.  They were slanderous and self-incriminating,
if 
you could believe any of them.  They were certainly demoralising, and a 
comfort to the enemy, whether true or not.

The soldiers/sailors/marines in Iraq do NOT want a POTUS/CIC (President
of 
the US /Commander in Chief) who is against what they are doing in the
first 
place.  Kerry would have the same benefit to military morale in 2005 as
he 
did in 1971.

Voting to approve military action and then voting against support for
the 
same action does not instill a feeling of comfort among those who depend
on 
that support for their lives, either.

My 10¢.

Conrad Hoffsommer
-Former Machinist's Mate 2nd Class - USN
-Nuclear power plant operator aboard USS Long Beach (CGN-9) 1970-73

Yup, it's personal.

over and out.


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