---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Andre, Thank you very much for offering us a glimpse into the wisdom that it's take= n=20 years to accumulate, and for the time it took to send some of it along to=20 me/us. =20 I will address everything else first before I put needle to hammer. If I=20 don't have to make the little holes, everyone will probably be happier! Thanks again, and to everyone who has responded thus far. =20 Dave Stahl In a message dated 3/6/04 6:49:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 antares@euronet.nl writes: > On 6-mrt-04, at 5:21, Piannaman@aol.com wrote: >=20 > > Liszt, > > > > I have a job coming up where I'll be working on a Seiler 180(5 10"=20 > > grand). I'll be at it all day, easing, lubing, regulating, tuning,=20 > > and voicing. These are really well-built German pianos, with Renner=20 > > blue hammers, and full Renner actions, etc., etc. > > > > I'm sure someone on this list has experience with these pianos. I've=20 > > worked on quite a few, but not to this extent. I've tuned many, and=20 > > done minor regulations on several, but have never voiced one. I'm=20 > > actually surprised that nobody has asked me to voice because there=20 > > are some really harsh overtones that emanate from the piano above the=20 > > treble break. I've muted some in the past by lacing felt through the=20 > > strings and wedging it under the capo bar, with some success. The=20 > > customer knows about this method, but would prefer it voiced down, or=20 > > so he says. > > > > My main concern in this whole deal is that I've seen the results of a=20 > > tech trying to "voice down" that section on a different piano. The=20 > > hammers are ruined. They look like pin cushions, and sound like them=20 > > too. > > > > Can anyone offer advice on the voicing of these instruments? M.=20 > > Orobeek?? Anyone?? =20 > > > > I've got a call in to the Seiler rep. I'm certain he's heard this=20 > > complaint before. I'm curious what the company has to offer in terms=20 > > of a fix. > > > > Thanks in advance for any and all input, > > > > Dave Stahl >=20 >=20 > Hallo Dave Stahl, >=20 > I am actually amazed that Seiler now sells instruments with Renner=20 > Blues. I don't see them that often and the last time I saw one in a=20 > shop (about 2 months ago), it had Abel VFG felt. > Does this mean that Seiler instruments destined for the USA have Renner=20 > Blues as a rule? >=20 > Anyway, > Aside from designing them, voicing piano's, is definitely the next most=20 > complicated work in the piano industry because of the many facets /=20 > parameters involved. > Anyone skilled at voicing will agree that if you don't know enough=20 > about it, a piano can easily be ruined in a few seconds. >=20 > Luckily, there are basic rules, but it is sometimes very hard to really=20 > understand them because, > a. that depends on whether the one who conveys these basic rules is=20 > knowledgeable enough but, also has the capacity to explain them - and, > b. it depends on whether the person asking the questions, is=20 > experienced enough to grasp the information and has the motoric skills=20 > to do the actual voicing (I have seen people who understood the=20 > process, but were right out clumsy and continually broke needles or=20 > even hammer shanks) >=20 > According to my experience here are some of the rules : > power and quality > No matter the taste of the owner / pianist, a hammer must have enough -=20 > basic - power to give a powerful enough and thus satisfying tone. > This power is the basis of producing a good tone and is of the highest=20 > importance for any piano. > To deduct whether a hammer set has these qualities depends on the=20 > talent and experience for listening to 'sounds', and that's actually=20 > the key to proper voicing (I will now not get into other facets of=20 > voicing like regulation and tuning, or the quality of the instrument). > The power and the resilience of the hammer are first determined by the=20 > felt maker and the hammer maker. > The piano maker chooses for, and buys, a certain quality, and the=20 > voicing technician has to make use of these qualities. >=20 > Zen and perception > The outcome of a complete voicing (for instance after a hammer change)=20 > is first determined by what an instrument can 'give', but next to that=20 > by the skills of the technician, and above all by his or her perception=20 > of 'what it should be', what it should sound like. > By playing the instrument extensively we will get a good impression of=20 > what we have 'in our hands'. Usually, the technician likes certain=20 > area's and makes mental notes of these. Those 'beauty spots' are=20 > anchors and they 'show us' what the instrument requires from us. > It would be great if we could work on it, so, that each note becomes an=20 > equal member of 'one big harmonious family'. > To accomplish that, we must have a vision, a 'pre-hearing' of what=20 > might be possible. > The work, time, and energy, needed for a hammer change, is enormous and=20 > asks for deep concentration and vast experience. > If we do this kind of work very often, we may find that, after a couple=20 > of years, the same job requires less time, less energy. > After 10-15 years, even less time and energy are used, and the outcome,=20 > the final result, is often of higher quality. How come? > This final result is based on doing thousands and thousands of=20 > movements, year after year, and because we do this over and over again=20 > (and every instrument is yet another challenge and a new inspiration)=20 > we are able to figure out short cuts and ways to spare our poor backs=20 > and muscles. > In the end, it becomes truly amazing how fast we can do such an=20 > intricate and complicated work in such a short time, relatively=20 > speaking. > It becomes 'Zen like' and I like that. > It is based on thought and perception, and on hard labor, but the trick=20 > is to spend as little energy as is possible and at the same time=20 > achieve a maximum result. >=20 > first voicing > In every piano factory there is always a first voicing and a second=20 > voicing. > During the first voicing, the basis will be laid for the future dynamic=20 > range of the instrument. > This is done by making use of the natural resilience of the wool and by=20 > the making of a proper 'cushion', a shock absorber. > 1. cushion > The making of a cushion is the very most important work of the voicing=20 > technician. > It is done by needling down the tension in the felt in a specific area=20 > and the needling must to stop when the shock absorbing properties are=20 > sufficient. > This is easier said then done and it requires vast experience to make=20 > quick decisions and do the work in an commercially reasonable time. > 2. hammer filing and shape > After the making of the cushion, the hammers will be swollen due to the=20 > needling process. > This swelling will diminish overnight or by the use of a professional=20 > hammer pounding machine, but anyway, the hammers need to be brought=20 > into a symmetrical form and usually also into a specific shape. > Filing is not a simple job. It requires a steady hand and a trained=20 > eye. In some factories or workshops the technicians use a thin and flat=20 > wood stick on which sanding paper has been glued. In other factories=20 > the technicians make use of the so called shoe shine technique, whereby=20 > they use a piece of filing paper or linen, large enough to file a=20 > couple of hammers at the same time. > I personally prefer the 'shoe shine' technique because a. it is much=20 > easier b. the hammer surfaces will be more precise and level and c. it=20 > works much and much faster. > 3. hammer fitting > Hammers will give their maximum result when each string receives the=20 > same amount of energy. > Methods differ : In some factories hammer fitting is done a number of=20 > times during both first voicing and second voicing and the method of=20 > fitting the hammers to the strings also differs from place to place.=20 > Some use a little hook, to pull up the hammer to the string, others=20 > (Yamaha) have developed a handy way to lift wippen and hammer at the=20 > same time, thereby blocking the process of let off. (a long piece of=20 > felt laid between wippens and hammer rolls will have the same effect). >=20 > The first voicing is in my opinion the most important voicing. > Some technicians pull up their noses for 'first voicing', or are=20 > impatient, and want to go on as fast as possible with the second=20 > voicing, which they think is much more interesting. > To have a good understanding of the first voicing technique (hammer=20 > basics) will ensure the voicing technician of a fine success when he is=20 > ready with the second voicing. > No understanding of this process, or being impatient, will ensure a=20 > hammer tragedy. >=20 > Second voicing > This is the moment when an instrument 'shows its character'. > Through more needling, but this time in the highest zones only (the=20 > crown area), the technician evens out the tonal volume. > This is a very dangerous moment, because 'voicing a bit here and=20 > voicing a bit there' may well result in a gradually and slowly (or=20 > speedy) going down in power. > Again, this is something which one only learns and masters through many=20 > mistakes and hard won experience and it, again, shows that the=20 > perception of what-it-should-sound-like is an absolute requirement. > During second voicing, we also try to get rid of 'noise' and buzz or=20 > ringing sounds and we perform the left pedal voicing. >=20 > 1. noise or buzz > This is one of the complaints we often talk or write about because it=20 > is so hard to get rid of. > This is indeed a very complex issue on the one hand, because many=20 > factors are involved (like strings, soundboard, frame, capo's, and=20 > hammers), on the other hand we can often solve it quickly by either=20 > improving or masking. > It is often not possible (no time, no money) to clean the capo's by=20 > filing and polishing them. > Worn hammers or badly treated hammers are often the cause and if our=20 > time is limited (and it often is) we must focus on regulation, tuning=20 > and voicing. > A proper regulation is number one, just like a fine tuning. > hammers > The hammers though often require extra attention because they are=20 > usually damaged and have deep grooves. > I have made it my principle not to work anymore on hammers with very=20 > deep grooves. In my opinion the work is for nothing because one has to=20 > file the hammers dramatically to get back an even and symmetrical=20 > shape, which is an absolute requirement for a good result. > Many technicians just file down the crown area and think they do a good=20 > job because it looks nice and clean again. They forget that the total=20 > shape of the hammers has gone from a pear shape to an apple shape with=20 > a very different effect on overtones. > Filing away the grooves of a hammer (or almost, as required by the=20 > famous Yamaha method) is one thing, re-shaping the hammer into a=20 > desired symmetrical object another. > First of all, the hammer will be dramatically lighter, causing a loss=20 > in down weight of sometimes 5 grams. At the same time the loss of mass=20 > will cause a different complexity of overtones which means that the=20 > whole instrument (and especially in middle and treble) will sound=20 > different. > That's why I am of the opinion that filing should be limited and that=20 > customers should be made aware that indeed hammers are like tires (only=20 > a 'little' more expensive). (; >=20 > So, in order to fix noise and buzz quickly, we should focus on : string=20 > tapping and leveling, regulation, tuning, hammer fitting, voicing, and=20 > single string voicing. >=20 > friendly greetings > from > Andr=E9 Oorebeek >=20 ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/9a/bd/07/01/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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