Hi Ed
I think by and large we agree here, tho I am less certain that we are on
the same page on a couple points. Comments interspersed below.
"The Tune-Offs" have become legendary. I was not there, but reports
from people who were there convince me that nothing was proved. No
recordings or measurements were made. In fact, the legends are
seriously misleading about what happened. Jim Coleman may have kept
his tuning offsets, and about half the audience felt his tuning was
better than Virgil's. I don't think Jim considered the events to be
serious studies.
I tend to agree for the most part, tho I might add that if they did show
anything conclusively, it was that the audience(s) of these tune-offs
were not capable of discerning much of a difference from their listening
positions...which may say more about the audience(s) then anything
else. I would also point out that Jims tunings were not strictly by the
dial, by his own admission. It would be more accurate I think to
describe his tunings as ETD assisted tunings.
I do not know what the limits of Olympian human pitch perception
are, so I don't know that human hearing is more accurate than
digital measurement. If we were not somewhat tolerant, no one would
have pianos, because we all know they deviate significantly within a
few days (if not hours) of tuning, and yet, we still enjoy them.
I think we first need to precisely define what the term <<accurate>>
here is before we get into comparisons between aural and etd based
tunings. For my part, accuracy can either mean "to what degree the
result corresponds with the intent" or it can mean a more vague attempt
at a subjective assessment of clarity and cleanness of overall in
tuneness. It is this second we get into real difficulty with in such
comparisons...yet in the end it is usually this that lies at the root of
our own personal likes and dislikes. Now if someone can make that
monumental leap and bridge the gap between a purely objective math model
to the degree that it unifies in a nearly universal way all our
individual sense of in-tuneness ... that indeed would be a mark in human
history. Such a gap has never been bridged. Heck physicists cant even
agree on what gravity is or isnt, or what causes it to come into existance.
I also don't know what is the correct or perfect tuning, and I have
seen people, including myself, have their opinions moved more by the
natural smokes and mirrors of the situation than by genuine response
to the rarities of temperament and tuning. (Sometimes I've been
moved by my own smoke and mirrors, and have a video to prove it!)
I refer to the definitions above and otherwise echo your experiences.
Its hard to get at...yet somehow we always react positively when an
instrument really displays that in-tuneness that somewhere somehow
apparently does exist.
I hope I am an open minded non-believer, looking forward to learning
something, but I am empiricist by bent of character. Although I can
see how an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a
tuning pin, I gently dust them off to make room for my tuning lever.
:)... I'm not much one for smoke and magic either... tho like you I
catch myself at it often enough. I'm just trying to apply simple logic
here.
Therefore, I look for very simple numbers. I would like simple
measurements in controlled and fair comparisons. I would like to
hear, measure and compare "Pure Octaves," for instance. If the
measurement of Mr. X's and Mr. Y's octaves are the same, on the same
piano, and yet they ascribe to different methodologies, that tells
us something. If Mr. B's "pure octave" is a different measure than
Mr. C's "pure octave," that also tells us something.
Ed S.
Agreed that measurements and numbers can be enlightening... but they
cant truly describe the world... or any of its constituent parts... and
this includes tuning. It can only come close. Thats perhaps because
numbers reflect an ideal yet the world does not and can not conform to
any ideal in anything close to an absolute sense.
Cheers
RicB
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC