All, I feel I need to step in here and address the assertion that the Craigslist ad is representing an item that is claimed to be, but is not a Steinway; or the serial number has been changed. I strongly encourage restraint in making these assertions. I don't claim any special expertise in the area of authenticating Steinway uprights, but I studied and presented on the subject of Steinway uprights more than a decade ago, and have developed a small photographic database of these instruments. I see no evidence of fraud, nor has anyone shown any clear evidence of fraud. I see only a typical "cut-down" or cabinet-modified Steinway upright in the photograph linked. Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus. In a message dated 4/25/2009 10:52:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, wimblees at aol.com writes: David There are no rules for what you can or cannot sell on Craig's list, except their own restrictions, which are very easy to disregard. There are also no laws that prevent people from offering to sell bad merchandise, or misrepresenting the quality of the item. What I do believe is against the law, however, is altering an official identifying mark of an item to make it appear newer or older, as in the case of the Steinway, which had the serial number changed. That, I believe, would be considered fraud. Wim -----Original Message----- From: David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net> To: caut at ptg.org Sent: Sat, 25 Apr 2009 1:39 am Subject: Re: [CAUT] How do you spell fraud? An interesting range of perceptions seems to emerge here. Richard finds it hard to believe the worst of anyone. Wim is hyper-sensitive about his adoptive homeland, and David Love would seem to favor tried and true Gitmo techniques, knowing, as he must, that whatever information he gets won't be reliable =-O :-! If Craig Newmark is not prepared to change his business approach after recent events in Boston, this is not likely to garner attention from C-list administrators. While I doubt that this Las Vegas caper is a case of simple ignorance, it would, be interesting to know what violations of either Craig's List rules or actual law might be involved here. David Skolnik Hastings on Hudson, NY At 08:10 PM 4/24/2009, you wrote: Have your partner hold the string at the other end facing you. Turn your end clockwise. Ask them which way the string is turning from their orientation. The answer will be counterclockwise. So if you turn clockwise and they turn counterclockwise the string will simply be rotating and not twisting. For it to twist they must turn it counterclockwise from their orientation. David Love _www.davidlovepianos.com_ (http://www.davidlovepianos.com/) From: _caut-bounces at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org) [_ mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org) ] On Behalf Of _wimblees at aol.com_ (mailto:wimblees at aol.com) Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 3:15 PM To: _caut at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut at ptg.org) Subject: Re: [CAUT] How do you spell fraud? Richard Everything you say is trued, but I don't appreciate the your demeaning comment about Hawaii. This is not a Hawaii issue. This is a common ordinary fraud issue, which should be about the same in any state. According to Rob, he has seen the seller of pianos on Craig's list many time, always advertising pianos in glorified ways. All I am suggesting that perhaps this is something the "authorities" should look into. Wim -----Original Message----- From: Richard Adkins <_RADKINS at coe.edu_ (mailto:RADKINS at coe.edu) > To: _caut at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut at ptg.org) Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: [CAUT] How do you spell fraud? It's not fraud they are just ignorant. The "registered in 1878" it taken right off the plate, as you can see from the photo on the ad. So that's where they got that. Go by the serial number. Maybe you can write them a correction on the date going by serial number. This info is available from Steinway's website. I would not call the police!~~~duh....maybe that's how they do it in Hawaii. Richard Adkins Coe College >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 07:04:22 -0400 From: _wimblees at aol.com_ (mailto:wimblees at aol.com) Subject: Re: [CAUT] How do you spell fraud? To: _rrg at unlv.nevada.edu_ (mailto:rrg at unlv.nevada.edu) , _caut at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut at ptg.org) Message-ID: <_ 8CB92E38EECF5EF-1498-3683 at webmail-dh41.sysops.aol.com_ (mailto:8CB92E38EECF5EF-1498-3683 at webmail-dh41.sysops.aol.com) > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rob If you suspect fraud, I would contact the local PD or the state's attorney general's office. Wim -----Original Message----- From: Rob & Helen Goodale <_rrg at unlv.nevada.edu_ (mailto:rrg at unlv.nevada.edu) > To: _caut at ptg.org_ (mailto:caut at ptg.org) Sent: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 5:39 pm Subject: [CAUT] How do you spell fraud? An interesting find on Craigs List.? Someone is selling an "Antique Steinway upright" that was "registered in 1878", (whatever that's supposed to mean).??It says that it?is "historical"?but doesn't?provide any explanation?why.? From the picture it is plainly obvious to be 1950s-ish with a modern cabinet.? It says it has serial number 64810 which would?make the date about right.? However the numbers which are partly visible?are completely the wrong font.? It looks like rub-on numbers from an art store. ? I have observed a rash of misleading or plain out fraudulent piano ads lately.? Someone here has been selling gray markets out of their home perpetually.? A different piano every week but always the same living room in the picture.? I've also seen a lot of pianos lately being?advertised as "rare" but no explanation as to why.? A while back someone was selling an incredibly average old upright but the ad went on paragraph after paragraph?proclaiming it to be?special and rare and that you would be a fool to pass this opportunity up.? Have any of you noticed this activity increasing in your area? ? _http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/msg/1136859630.html_ (http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/msg/1136859630.html) ? Rob Goodale, RPT Las Vegas, NV ____________________________________ Green cleaning products -- do they work as well? _Find out now!_ (http://home.aol.com/new_in_home/photogallerytall/_a/spring-cleaning-products-put-to-th e-test/20090407180609990001?ncid=emlweushome00000001) ____________________________________ Green cleaning products -- do they work as well? _Find out now!_ (http://home.aol.com/new_in_home/photogallerytall/_a/spring-cleaning-products-put-to-t he-test/20090407180609990001?ncid=emlweushome00000001) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1220814855x1201410739/aol?red ir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=A prilfooter426NO62) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut_ptg.org/attachments/20090426/48349d88/attachment.html>
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