EBVT Offsets (compilation)

[Richard Moody]

>And won't the tuner listen to the results and adjust
> if and as necessary like any good ETD tuner - assuming some
knowledge of
> what intervals are beatless, equal beating, nearly equal
beating, etc? I
> guess I'm asking how fine a practical hair is being split here.
>
> Ron N
>

This is a point I think gets lost in the temperament debates.
Historically, the HTs were tuned by ear, sooo... if there is
interest in historical authenticity, it makes sense that musicians
might be more interested in HT's tuned by ear.
    Another point is that cents offsets are rather meaningless to
a musician. To understand the musicality of a historic temperament
requires going through the aural instructions of the tuning
sequence.  In the so called "Wells"  a number of 5ths are tuned
pure.   The interested musician might be curious to know which
ones are pure and which ones are not and where do they fall?    He
might ask if pure and tempered 5ths are arranged to eliminate the
wolf, or to produce one or more pure 3rds, or both.   If they are
supposed to result in pure 3rds, where do they occur?   This is
easily ascertained from the original tuning instructions.
    While cents offsets is good to preserve the historical record,
and takes much less effort than scholarly translation of the whole
instructions I as an aural tuner eagerly await the whole
translations and I think musicians esp those interested in
historic renditions would be also.    After reading the
translation of Mersene, and the Colorado Music Press translation
of Pietro Aaron, I would like to see similar translations of
Werckmeister, Kernberger,
Marpurg, Montal, Rameau, and many others.   Writings in  English
such as the Broadwoods, Stanhope, Smith, Newton, Young, and others
deserve compilation and republishing in modern editions.
    A third consideration of modern study of historic tuning
methods consists in the actual experience of tuning them.  While
it is claimed it can be done with machines, I find aural tuning
gives an understanding and appreciation of the temperament on a
musical and aesthetic level, that  makes me glad I am a piano
tuner.  I used to think how hard it would be to learn a different
temperament than the one I spent years perfecting.   But when I
took the plunge so to speak, I found it remarkable easy.  The
skills and knowledge that enable one to tune ET aurally make it a
snap to tune most HT's.  And this was from modern instructions
based on secondary sources with very little primary source to go
on.
    I tuned Meantone from Wm Braid White, attempted it I should
say.  If there are any who have tried to tune quarter comma
Meantone by ear repeatedly I would like to compare notes.  Maybe I
try this on harpsichords or pipe organs before I exasperate about
the difficulties of tuning  MT on the modern piano.   Then I found
the Colorado Press translations of Pietro Aaron and a completely
new experience of tuning the same temperament but time it was from
the original instructions.  What a difference.  While a fugue or
ricecar might get by, don't try three part harmony for a choir.
    So we come to the theoretical vs the actual rendition of HT's.
It has been pointed out and I agree that a rendition of a
theoretical ideal ET was not possible (with fine consistency)
until an understanding of the succession of 3rds was realized.
That the beat rates double each octave going up or halve going
down.  I add to that  the 3rd -- 10th test, that proves octaves.
Knowledge of these tests apparently was not realized until around
1910.    Even in Helmholtz, "Sensation of Tone" where it was first
shown how the beats result from coincident partials, the
succession of 3rds is not mentioned, nor the 3rd--10th test which
modern tuners use to achieve and evaluate (prove) ET.
    With cents off sets derived from the theoretical basis of
meantone we can construct beat tables showing the rates of the
5ths and 3rds, and also the 6ths which the tuners of Bach's time
never knew.  I don't know what results are produced by machines
but if tuning Meantone by today's  knowledge of beat rates of 6ths
and 10ths using the ear only, it is extremely difficult to get all
the 5ths "even".  This term cannot be explained in words, only at
the piano with a tuning hammer and different attempts to achieve
what a group of tuners there would agree is the ideal of the
theory of Meantone.  What happened to me was I started being
careless about the octaves.  Indeed the octave tests in any
temperament but ET is absent.
    When I said earlier it was easier than I expected to tune any
of the HT's I meant setting a temperament.  When you try to tune
the whole piano you get into issues of proving octaves that cannot
be done in HT's like it is done in ET.  The octave and 5th is
difficult and I suspect not even checked in original HT tunings,
the same with double octave and 5th, 10th, and octave and 10th.
My guess is that such intervals as octaves going down were tuned
more by intonation than beats, and octaves going up were more to
"please the ear" or the violinist.   I wonder how that would sound
when playing the opening measures of the Greig Piano Concerto as
opposed to "correct" modern ET ?
    The fourth consideration of tonality has do to with the piano
itself.  Did Chopin   hear his music on a SnS A for example?   Did
Liszt have a D to perform on?  Having heard historic pianos  on
recordings and live at museums like Shrine to Music, I can only
say they are worlds apart from what you hear even on the modern
console piano.  For the sound of the piano before 1850 the square
grand comes closest.  One of my teachers claimed "Beethoven wrote
music for pianos that have not yet been invented."   I wished I
had asked "what temperament?"---I doubt he would have said one
that has not been invented yet.     ----rm



----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Nossaman <RNossaman@cox.net>
To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: EBVT Offsets (compilation)


>
> >>why wouldn't the offsets from the adjusted ET be pretty close
to where it
> >>belongs from piano to piano?
> >
> >For much the same reason that the adjusted ET itself is only
pretty close
> >and not dead on -- inconsistent inharmonicity. The exact
placement of
> >partials cannot be precisely predicted, only assumed. The lower
partials
> >of notes in the tenor can be particularly inconsistent, thereby
wreaking
> >havoc with any assumptions.
> >
> >As Ed alluded to, if a temperament calls for a beatless 5th,
and both
> >notes are tuned by the ETD from their 3rd partials, and the 2nd
partial of
> >the upper note of the 5th is off in left field somewhere, then
the 5th
> >will not be beatless.
> >
> >Extend the concept to every other interval. It can be ugly.
> >
> >Kent S
>
>
> >In equal beating temperaments, the intervals of concern may not
be same
> >class intervals, for instance, in a triad, the third and fifth
may beat at a
> >ratio of 6/1.  Inharmonicity could throw this off.
> >Ed Sutton
>
>
> Kent, Ed,
> Don't the same inharmonicity problems exist in setting an ET
with an ETD?
> How far off is "off", and what's the tolerance for "beatless",
and the
> penalty for deviation? And won't the tuner listen to the results
and adjust
> if and as necessary like any good ETD tuner - assuming some
knowledge of
> what intervals are beatless, equal beating, nearly equal
beating, etc? I
> guess I'm asking how fine a practical hair is being split here.
>
> Ron N
>
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