David Yes, an attorney would be best to consult in this case. But it seems that if the customer thinks the dealer sold a piano that is not in the condition the dealer claimed it was, it could be grounds for fraud. The only way to judge if the piano is defective, is to have another tuner evaluate it. If that evaluation includes tuning the piano, then the warrantee has been voided But if the piano was not in the condition the customer was lead to believe it was, then it refers back to the fraud part. In either case, the warrantee is voided, and the customer can make a claim against the dealer. It will be up to the dealer to decide if he wants to enforce the warrantee claim, or make a "deal" with the customer to keep from going to trial. Are you just speculating on a possible case here, or is there a situation where this scenario is actually taking place? Wim -----Original Message----- From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 3:46 am Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties The question really boils down to whether the dealer can void the warranty for someone else tuning the piano and whether stipulating that only a certain tech can work on the piano for the warranty to remain in effect (we’re not talking about who is designated to repair a warranty item) does violate some fair trade laws. If the Buyer makes the purchase and finds that the tech provided by the dealer is a lousy tuner a nd voicer, are they forced continue to use that tech in order to keep the structural warranty in force and do they necessarily give up the protections of the warranty by having another tech simply tune the piano? I believe there are laws which protect the buyer in this case and that’s what I would like to know. Judges don’t rule arbitrarily, they do it based on case law. Anyway, clearly this is not the forum to get this question definitively answered but it is germane to how we conduct our business and whether our customers are within their rights to use the tech of their choice without risk of voiding a warranty. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of wimblees at aol.com Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:34 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties David You're starting to throw too many variable into the equation that are too unrealistic. So let's start over. >From the description you gave, (dealer sells a piano with warrantee that stipulates only his tuner can tune and work on the piano), all the dealer wants is make sure the piano will be taken care of by someone from his store, someone who is "on his side". What he doesn't want is for an other tuner to work on the piano and tell the customer all the things that are wrong with the piano, and have the customer complain to the store.0One way for the dealer to make sure no one else touches the piano is to put in the warrantee that in case someone else works on the piano, the warrantee is void. It's the dealer's warrantee. He can put anything he wants in there. (within reason). The dealer can put in there that the piano needs to be tuned once a month, and only on a Sunday afternoon. It's up to the customer to accept that clause in the warrantee. If the customer doesn't like that stipulation, he doesn't have to buy the piano. One thing my lawyer told me a long time ago. Any contract, agreement, deal, etc, between any two parties is legal, no matter what it says. It's when one party disagrees with the interpretation of the agreement, contract, etc, or when one party decides he/she doens't want to abide by the agreement , etc, that the case goes before a judge. So to answer your question directly, is a warrantee that limits who can tune the piano, legal, the answer is yes, as long as both parties agree to the stipulation. Is it ethical? I'll let someone else answer that. Wim -----Original Message----- From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties So if someone is tuning the piano and the soundboard falls out the assumption is that it was the lousy tuning technique that caused it? I don’t think so. Stei nway offers a warranty and yet there is no stipulation that it be a Steinway tech who works on it. I suppose if someone made a claim about a bent tuning pin then Steinway could easily say that it was the tech who bent it (authorized Steinway or not) but if the ribs fall off the bottom of the soundboard I don’t think they would likely sidestep the warranty claiming poor and unauthorized tuning technique—nor would they likely prevail I would imagine. If Jiffy Lube tries to fix the oil leak then it would make sense that the warranty for that part is voided. But if Jiffy Lube simply changes the oil with dealer recommen ded parts and materials, it doesn’t. Anyway, I would be curious to know the answer if someone knows an attorney. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of wimblees at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:51 PM To: pianotech at ptg.o rg Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties David If the dealer is going to give a 5 year warrantee on his piano, then I think he has the right to demand that only his service tech service the instrument. That doesn't mean the customer can't have someone else tune the piano, but if anything goes wrong, the dealer can always claim that the other tech was at fault, no matter what it is, and thus void the warrantee. As someone else said, car makers want only factory trained mechanics work on their cars. That doesn't mean you can't take your car to Jiffy Lube for an oil change, but if you take the car in complaining about an oil leak, the dealer, with the backing of the factory, can claim unauthorized mechanics who didn't know what they were doing worked on the car, and thus the warrantee is void. Wim -----Original Message----- From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> To: pianotech at ptg.org Sent: Thu, Oct 1, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [pianotech] Warranties Here’s the situation. A dealer sells a used piano. The customer asks for a warranty. The dealer says he will issue a 5 year warranty but only if his technician services, i.e. tunes and maintains, the piano. 1. Is that legal? 2. Is that ethical? David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Israel Stein Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 3:24 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: [pianotech] Warranties >David Love wrote: > >Can a dealer issue a warranty on a piano stipulating that the warranty is only valid if their technician services >the piano? I thought that was illegal under fair trade laws or something related. 0A >David Love Folks, An attorney with knowledge of contract law should be consulted. A warranty is a contract, and in some states such a contract may be illegal - and therefore unenforceable - and in others it might not be. Regardless of any contracts or warranties, in many jurisdictions the doctrine of "implied warranty" is recognized, which may apply even if the dealer's/rebuilder's warranty is legally void. Which means that the item being sold or item being delivered after rebuilding must be capable of functioning as intended - otherwise the client has a valid claim against the dealer or rebuilder. This is a complicated issue. I was once involved in a small claims case here in California, as the "other" technician who was called on to examine a "rebuilt" piano that did not hold pitch at all over a year after delivery. (it was a botch job - new pinblock with tuning pin torque between 20 and 50 lbs.) What I found out from questions asked and statements made by the judge from the bench is as follows (this of course applies only to California - other states may have different standards): 1. . It is, up to the buyer to p rove that a condition exists which prevents the item from functioning as intended and that this condition is the fault of the dealer or rebuilder. The dealer or rebuilder cannot prevent the customer from employing others to help ascertain such a condition - implied warranty applies in all cases. 2. Under implied warranty, the dealer or rebuilder mu st be given an opportunity to correct the defect. If the dealer or rebuilder refuses or is unable to do so, the client may20hire someone else to do the repair - and make a claim against the dealer or rebuilder. Of course, it would probably involve going to court... 3. The dealer or rebuilder must be notified of the defect in a reasonable amount of time. In my case the judge essentially punted - he dismissed the case because the problem was not brought to the "rebuilder's" attention in a reasonable amount of time. Never did find out what "reasonable time" meant in California... In other words - this is an issue for a lawyer, and the rules may differ from state to state. Israel Stein -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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