Of course this can be done. The questions are simply how and what will it cost?
<< The how is where I will need some hlep. Design could easily take advantage of the struts as well as the plate where the existing agraffes are mounted so I think that strength is not really an issue so much as forming, fitting correctly attaching and choosing the best material as well as making it look like it belongs. The existing agraffes already define the string termination locations. Dave Rubenstein's new 8' piano has half agraffes under capo for all notes - this is similar to what I am imagining for the top section.
But I do have to ask why you want larger hammers in the high treble? Do you really like that thuddy, hammer knocking sound that simply overpowers any musical tone that might otherwise be present? If so, there might be other ways of getting it.
<<The typical hammer for note 88 with agraffe is small compared with the normal in my experience. I do not necessarily want a larger than normal hammer - but at least normal - probably an Isaac hammer or equiv. I believe that the typical agraffe hammers at the top note/s are small because of strike point issues? Hammer hitting agraffe/plate so they get reduced in size? No, I do not like thuddy/knocking sound up there.
That said, I have experimented with larger - or should I say heavier hammers in the high treble with very good results. They just need to be a bit harder. I have an idea that more hammer mass up there will allow the strike point to be lengthened slightly but I cannot prove it just yet.
Second, I to have heard many pianos using agrafes up through the treble with unsatisfactory tone. In general, however, once the soundboard is replaced with one actually designed to respond to the high-frequency energy of the strings and the piano is given a decent string scale (which almost always involves replacing the bridges) they work quite nicely. Power, sustain and timbre are easily comparable to the average capo tastro systems. In other words, it was not the agrafe system that was limiting the performance. (Having said this I must point out that there are some agrafe systems that are better than others and I don't remember just what the H&D design is like.)
<< This HD has had a custom RC board installed with laminated ribs and custom bridge with redesigned scale and a big cutoff bar and fish. The origianl bridge agraffes have been deleted from the redesign. Some surgery must be done on the plate to accomodate the new bridge shape in the killer octave area before I can assemble it. I really believe that the redesigned scale will be superior but I cannot do any measuremnts just yet.
Trouble is that the belly/bridge work was done well over 20 years ago and I will need to try to figure out what the designer/s had in mind. It was a "piano builders" project that was shelved and forgotten about and I took over recently. Sound familiar?
Third, a lot of the developmental and experimental work I've done over the years has been based on the nagging question of "why not?" So that one I can readily understand and it may well outweigh questions one and two.
<<It does outweigh the other questions.
Also, I will never know what the piano sounded like prior to teardown - do not care. As the rim and bracing are softwoods I imagine it was similar to the Bosendorfer.
Gene
ddf
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From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Gene Nelson
Sent: February 02, 2009 4:44 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] re design
Hi Paul,
But why? Are there problems with the existing agraffes?
<The biggest issue is that I like a bigger hammer in the high treble - not possible with the agraffe. Second is that I have not heard too many pianos with agraffes at the top that I like the tone. Third, it is my spec piano and just the challenge is intriguing. There are many other custom features and "why not" is nagging at me.
I had also thought about installing the capo and using half agraffes on the bottom side of it.
Obviously I will need some engineering assistance if I decide to do the redesign.
Personally, me, I like agraffes to the top. And would not redesign for a capo bar. It was Erard's solution to the economics of agraffes, and not a design for the better necessarily.
<I like Erards.
Gene
Cheers,
Paul
In a message dated 2/2/2009 4:54:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, nelsong at intune88.com writes:
Thanks Paul,
I will be a bit more specific. I have a 1880's Hallet&Davis 8'9" that will come into the shop soon. Much of the belly work has been completed. It has agraffe's up through note #88.
I had considered the possibility of installing a capo bar to replace the agraffes. Either in just the top or top two sections.
I am curious if any living techs that read the forum have had experience with similar redesign issues.
I have looked at Bosendorfer closely and think that a similar type of bar is possible.
Regards,
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] re design
Why yes, Gene, Erard did just this in about 1811. :-)
Paul
In a message dated 2/2/2009 1:00:34 P.M. Central Standard Time, nelsong at intune88.com writes:
Hello list,
Just curious if anyone out there has had the chance to design and install successfully - a capo bar/s that would take the place of and eliminate agraffes in the top section/s above the dampers?
Anyone ever consider doing this?
Thanks,
Gene
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