[pianotech] Clarification Question: i'll take a pass

[David Ilvedson]

A 20+ cent change can be made in 1.25 hours and with reasonable stability, imho...I would then suggest 6 months or at least within a year for the next service...

David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA  94044

----- Original message ----------------------------------------
From: "Scott Helms, RPT" <tuner at helmsmusic.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Received: 8/26/2009 8:27:04 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Clarification Question:  i'll take a pass


>Thanks to everybody for your input on this. I think it might be my turn to
>clarify my post a little, too. When I was talking about making a second
>appointment, 2 weeks later, to do the "fine tuning" after a pitch raise, I
>was not saying that I was pulling the pitch up gradually over the 2
>appointments. At the first appointment, I do as many pitch raises (passes
>with overpull) as it takes to get the piano up to A440 or even a little
>sharper, and consistent, by the time I walk out the door. The piano sits
>for 2 weeks and does whatever little pitch dance it's gonna do, before I
>come back and tune to A440 the way I would had the piano not needed a
>pitch correction first.

>One more clarification about this:

>>> (I said:) I know  it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one
>visit.
>>> However,  just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD
>>> do  it.
>>> (Paul responded:) I personally disagree with this sentiment as a
>generalization. It's
>>> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one
>>> sitting  if the
>>> raise is not ridiculously excessive.

>You're right, Terry, I was trying to make a differentiation between a
>one-visit pitch correction and tuning vs. the 2-visit approach I use (like
>I described above). Paul, I don't think you and I disagree at all - I know
>it's possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune in one sitting, but I
>was saying that just because it's possible doesn't mean it's the best
>thing to do. I feel this way not because it's somehow better for the piano
>to do it in two visits, but because it gets the message across to the
>customer more clearly that regular tuning is important, and if they
>neglect the piano it's gonna cost them, in both time (the need for 2
>appointments) and money. I guess you could call it my Pavlovian Pitch
>Raise Policy  :)

>Scott
>------
>Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician
>480-818-3871
>www.helmsmusic.net






>> Hi Bill - Your questioning is so direct and polite, and being that
>> Paul is on vacation, I'll stick my neck out and throw some answers
>> your way. Please keep in mind that these answers/comments are are my
>> own, and do not necessarily reflect Paul's thinking in any way (if
>> they are bad, it's my fault, not Paul's!).
>>
>>> I know  it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit.
>>> However,  just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD
>>> do  it.
>>> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's
>>> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one
>>> sitting  if the
>>> raise is not ridiculously excessive.
>>>
>>> >>  What's the ballpark -xx cents number you're talking about being
>>> "ridiculously excessive"?
>>
>>
>> I think the statement is only trying to distinguish between making
>> several appointments to slowly pull the piano up to standard pitch and
>> getting it up there in one sitting. I certainly agree with the
>> statement.
>>
>> The statement goes further and addresses tuning the same day after a
>> pitch raise. A five or ten cent pitch raise would certainly qualify
>> for "not ridiculously excessive". A 100+-cent pitch raise would likely
>> qualify for ridiculously excessive in anyone's book. Somewhere in
>> between lies a grey area.
>>
>>> Concert work often calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is
>>> typical of the former. And if
>>> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a
>>> more than
>>> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for
>>> several tunings.
>>>
>>> >>  What negative cents numbers are "radical", that would need
>>> "several tunings"... over what period of time?
>>>
>>> >>  Maybe one final question...   could you provide a
>>> differentiation of "adequate" and "fine tune"... either in "cents"
>>> or some other quantitative answer (aka stability over time, or
>>> whatever)
>>
>>
>> Your question addresses the aforementioned grey area. I really can't
>> give you any definitive cents value either. You'll have to find that
>> on your own from your own experience. At the one end of the spectrum,
>> a concert pianist will likely not be happy with anyone's tuning a day
>> or two after a 25-cent pitch raise followed immediately with a tuning.
>> However, "Johnny", the beginner will likely be happy with his piano a
>> month after a 60-cents pitch raise followed by a tuning the same day.
>>
>> Some of this has to do with the piano itself.
>>
>> I don't worry about putting any absolute numbers on anything in this
>> arena. I simply tell the piano owner that we did a large pitch raise
>> and that the piano will not be as stable (tuning won't last as long)
>> as had the piano been tuned on a regular basis for the past few years.
>> I tell them that they may notice the piano going out of tune sooner
>> than it would have otherwise and they may wish to tune again earlier
>> than otherwise. And I just let it go at that. If the piano player was
>> skilled, I may state these ideas a bit more directly and say something
>> like "you will LIKELY notice the tuning wandering in the coming weeks
>> and you may wish to tune it again soon." But that's about as specific
>> as I would get - and I think as specific as anyone would want to get.
>>
>> Find a neglected piano that you have some sort of regular access to,
>> do a big pitch raise, and then monitor how the tuning deteriorates
>> over time. It's going to be a combination of the piano, it's
>> environment, the pianist, the time span, the pianist's ear, the
>> pianist's wallet, how big the pitch raise was, etc., etc. Too many
>> variables to nail it down much more than that.
>>
>> Hope this helps. Blame me if I steered you wrong.....  :-0
>>
>> Terry Farrell
>>
>> PS: And Paul - if you have anything REALLY nasty to say to me, please
>> send it privately!  ;-)
>>
>> On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:33 PM, PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Bill:
>>>
>>> I am on vacation right now and if I have  time when I return I'll
>>> consider whether I have answers to your questions. Let me say now
>>> that I rarely put numbers to these things and have found it
>>> dangerous and unprofitable when giving advice.
>>>
>>> Also, there is no contradiction between what I said in GR and what I
>>> said in the post. I pull the piano all the way up (overpulled) on
>>> the first pass every time. It may take another stabilizing pitch
>>> pass before attempting any kind of decent tuning. Wherein do you see
>>> a conflict?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/25/2009 10:59:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>>> pianofritz50 at aol.com
>>>  writes:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> I very much appreciated our conversations during the Convention
>>> about this subject, and I think I remember you said that one should
>>> pitch raise to A440, rather than take the piano up slowly over a
>>> series of periodic tunings... but I'm a somewhat confused w/ your
>>> posting of the following vs the PTG Convention statement.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if you could please clarify a few points indicated by
>>> the >>:
>>>
>>> I know  it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit.
>>> However,  just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD
>>> do  it.
>>> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's
>>> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one
>>> sitting  if the
>>> raise is not ridiculously excessive.
>>>
>>> >>  What's the ballpark -xx cents number you're talking about being
>>> "ridiculously excessive"?
>>>
>>> It may be possible to raise the  pitch
>>> and "fine tune" if the raise is within a narrow range.
>>>
>>> >>  Ballpark -xx cents number for this "fine tune" situation?
>>>
>>> Concert work often calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is
>>> typical of the former. And if
>>> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a
>>> more than
>>> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for
>>> several tunings.
>>>
>>> >>  What negative cents numbers are "radical", that would need
>>> "several tunings"... over what period of time?
>>>
>>> >>  Maybe one final question...   could you provide a
>>> differentiation of "adequate" and "fine tune"... either in "cents"
>>> or some other quantitative answer (aka stability over time, or
>>> whatever)
>>>
>>> Thank you very much...   Bill Fritz, StLouis Chapter
>>>
>>> From: PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com
>>> To: pianotech at ptg.org
>>> Subject: Re: [pianotech] i'll take a pass
>>>
>>> I know  it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit.
>>> However,  just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD
>>> do  it.
>>> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's
>>> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one
>>> sitting  if the
>>>
>>> raise is not ridiculously excessive. It may be possible to raise
>>> the  pitch
>>> and "fine tune" if the raise is within a narrow range. Concert work
>>> often
>>> calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is typical of the former.
>>> And if
>>> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a
>>> more than
>>> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for
>>> several
>>> tunings.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>>