Patrick, I have a set of left run drill bits which work well for this type of problem. Got them from a machinist who worked next door many years ago. Don't know where he got them but McMaster, Fastenal, MSC, or other machinist supply should have them. I like them since by running "backwards" they more often than not act like a screw remover. Be sure to put a good clamp on the damper prior to doing any drilling. My preference is a #3 cabinet parallel clamp. Small and effective without too much interference. Regards, Gerry C, RPT West Chester University of PA --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: pcpoulson at sbcglobal.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 12:08:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Broken Damper Wire Screw Removal Wim: That would be a good idea, except that the damper tray is glued in place as well. I am hoping to not have to break that glue joint if at all possible. This piano was not designed with ease of repair in mind, as evidenced by other difficulties I have run into. It is a Ludwig, with a Staib-Arendschein action. Patrick --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: jonpage at comcast.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:32:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Broken Damper Wire Screw Removal A small reverse-twist drill bit might drill in and grab the shank and back it out. Another method is to use a cut off wheel on a Dremel Tool to cut a slot and then a small screwdriver turns it out. -- Regards, Jon Page --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: rnossaman at cox.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:40:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [pianotech] Broken Damper Wire Screw Removal Patrick C. Poulson wrote: > Hello: I am working on a grand that has glued-in damper flanges, and one > of the bass dampers has a wire screw that is broken on flush with the > wood. Does anyone have a reliable method for removing the broken stub? I > have consider using a small hole cutter to remove the screw and > surrounding wook, plugging and then redrilling for a new screw. Has > anyone found an alternative? > Thanks, I'd try drilling it out in place. Odds are, the screw is broken off below flush with the barrel, which should help with centering the drill. Plan on replacing the barrel, and likely the wire too. If that doesn't work, I'd consider splitting the top block. All the options are ugly, and you can't see what you're doing back there with any of them, but there are options. Ron N --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: custos3 at comcast.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 13:46:19 -0700 Subject: [pianotech] PACE lessons printed in previous Journals? Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:43:18 -0400 pianofritz50 at aol.com: > Hi Ben, check April 1994's Journal for PACE Technical Lesson #8. I > believe the other lessons precede & follow this issue. > > PS Gee, wouldn't it be nice if the PTG.org had these lessons > (individually) in pdf form on their Resources' Web Site?? (Available > for members only at no charge) It sure would help the Associates move > towards their RPT, if that is one of the objectives of the PTG > organization. > > Best Regards... Bill Fritz, St Louis Chapter editor Please be aware that the Repairs section of the PACE Tech lessons has been extensively revised and updated. The Regulation sections have also been revised to reflect updated techniques, new tools and various other changes that happened since 1994. Some of the recommendations in the original PACE lessons have not been borne out by experience - at least not universally so. You would be much better off spending the few dollars that it costs to order the current booklets from the PTG office. Israel Stein --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: tuner at helmsmusic.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:34:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [pianotech] double-striking hammers on Chinese uprights David - Repinning flanges to address bobbling in uprights works for the same reason that it does in grands. If the hammers are pinned too loose, there is too much energy in the hammer assembly during aftertouch and it will rebound and double-strike. Note that this typically happens on a blow that isn't strong enough to put the hammer into check, but that IS strong enough to make the hammer return to the string a second time. When you say excessive damper spring tension is the culprit for "exactly the reasons [I] mention", do you mean that it discourages the player from following through the keystroke? If so, how does that explain bobbling in the treble hammers that don't have dampers? And, wouldn't that be a player technique/education issue and not a piano malfunction issue? Scott ------ Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician 480-818-3871 www.helmsmusic.net > Why would repining flanges help with double striking? > > As I mentioned earlier, and as was discussed in a previous thread, excess > tension in the damper springs is a common culprit for double striking > (especially in some new pianos) for exactly the reasons you mention below. > > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of Scott Helms, RPT > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:56 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] double-striking hammers on chinese uprights > > I'm surprised that repinning the flanges didn't help - that always seems > to do the trick for me. Have you tried reducing the blow distance to get > more aftertouch? This was actually a thread on this list about a year ago, > and some suggested that damper springs that are too strong could cause > bobbling, although I've never been able to figure out why that would be > the case (unless it just discourages the player from following through the > entire keystroke) ... > > ------ > Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician > 480-818-3871 > www.helmsmusic.net > > > > > > > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: davidlovepianos at comcast.net To: pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:49:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [pianotech] double-striking hammers on Chinese uprights I've not experience a case where adding a couple of grams of friction to the flange would be enough to keep the hammer from bobbling if it was inclined to do so in the first place for other reasons. If you add enough friction to inhibit the hammer from moving freely likely you have added too much friction to the flange and can create other problems with hammer return speed. Excess damper spring tension will inhibit (I wouldn't say discourage) completion of the key stroke on light playing by adding excess and ever increasing tension through the stroke. While you can certainly train the player to play "harder" the piano shouldn't require that and taking some tension off the damper springs will take care of the problem if the tension is excessive which can be the cause. I've experience this several times on new uprights and made the correction with immediate results. In those cases the hammers without dampers were not bobbling which clued me in to the problem. I don't know what the problem is in this particular case but the original posting indicated that the regulation had already been refined. Checking the damper spring tension was a suggestion not a diagnosis as not having a chance to examine the piano more carefully leaves me somewhat in the dark. I would certainly check that before engaging in dismantling and repining all the flanges. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Scott Helms, RPT Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 2:34 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] double-striking hammers on Chinese uprights David - Repinning flanges to address bobbling in uprights works for the same reason that it does in grands. If the hammers are pinned too loose, there is too much energy in the hammer assembly during aftertouch and it will rebound and double-strike. Note that this typically happens on a blow that isn't strong enough to put the hammer into check, but that IS strong enough to make the hammer return to the string a second time. When you say excessive damper spring tension is the culprit for "exactly the reasons [I] mention", do you mean that it discourages the player from following through the keystroke? If so, how does that explain bobbling in the treble hammers that don't have dampers? And, wouldn't that be a player technique/education issue and not a piano malfunction issue? Scott ------ Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician 480-818-3871 www.helmsmusic.net > Why would repining flanges help with double striking? > > As I mentioned earlier, and as was discussed in a previous thread, excess > tension in the damper springs is a common culprit for double striking > (especially in some new pianos) for exactly the reasons you mention below. > > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On > Behalf > Of Scott Helms, RPT > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 8:56 PM > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] double-striking hammers on chinese uprights > > I'm surprised that repinning the flanges didn't help - that always seems > to do the trick for me. Have you tried reducing the blow distance to get > more aftertouch? This was actually a thread on this list about a year ago, > and some suggested that damper springs that are too strong could cause > bobbling, although I've never been able to figure out why that would be > the case (unless it just discourages the player from following through the > entire keystroke) ... > > ------ > Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician > 480-818-3871 > www.helmsmusic.net > > > > > > > > > > --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: jim at moypiano.com To: ben at benspianotuning.com; pianotech at ptg.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:51:03 -0600 Subject: Re: [pianotech] PACE lessons printed in previous Journals? On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 11:01 AM, <ben at benspianotuning.com> wrote: > I seem to recall hearing that the complete PACE lessons were reprinted in the Journal ... > ... does anyone have a recollection of which exact issues they were reprinted in? When I was studying up for the exams, I tracked them all down. I posted this to examprep some time back, I think. This really ought to be on some sort of PTG community wiki, as the search facility on the Journal CDs is useful, but somewhat scatter-shot. See below. Jim ---- My own directory structure on my computer, which follows the CD structure below the date: PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1993sep.pdf Technical Lesson #1 - Flange Rebushing Tuning Lesson #1 - Unison Tuning PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1993oct.pdf Technical Lesson #2 - Key Bushing Field Repair Tuning Lesson #2 - Tuning Hammer Sensitivity PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1993nov.pdf Technical Lesson #3 - Vertical Shank Replacement Tuning Lesson #3 - String Settling PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1993dec.pdf Technical Lesson #4 - String Replacement With Hitch Pin Loop Tuning Lesson #4 - Identifying Partials PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994jan.pdf Technical Lesson #5 - String Splicing Tuning Lesson #5 - Focusing On Beats PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994feb.pdf Technical Lesson #6 - Hammer Filing Tuning Lesson #6 - Setting Pitch PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994mar.pdf Technical Lesson #7 - Hammer Filing, Part II Tuning Lesson #7 - Tuning 2:1 Octaves PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994apr.pdf Technical Lesson #8 - Vertical Regulation - Part 1, Alignment Tuning Lesson #8 - Tuning 4:2 Octaves PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994may.pdf Technical Lesson #9 - Vertical Regulation - Part 2, Alignment Tuning Lesson #9 - Tuning 6:3 Octaves PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994jun.pdf Technical Lesson #10 - Vertical Regulation, Choosing Hammer Blow & Key Dip Settings Tuning Lesson #10 - Tuning Just Fifths and Fourths - Part 1, The Basic Skills PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994jul.pdf Technical Lesson #11 - Vertical Regulation, Adjusting Lost Motion & Leveling Keys Tuning Lesson #11 - Tuning Just Fifths and Fourths - Part 2, The Diatonic Comma PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994aug.pdf Technical Lesson #12 - Vertical Regulation, Adjusting Key Dip Tuning Lesson #12 - Counting Beats PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994sep.pdf Technical Lesson #13 - Vertical Regulation, Setting Let-Off Tuning Lesson #13 - Tuning Just Fifths & Fourths - Part 3, A Circle of Fiths Well Temperament PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994oct.pdf Technical Lesson #14 - Vertical Regulation, Adjusting Checking Distance and Setting Sharp Key Dip By The Equal Checking Method Tuning Lesson #14 - Tuning 4:1 Double Octaves PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994nov.pdf Technical Lesson #15 - Vertical Regulation, Dampers : Alignment and Regulation of Pedal Lift Tuning Lesson #15 - The Baldassin-Sanderson Temperament PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994dec.pdf Technical Lesson #16 - Vertical Regulation, Damper Spoon Adjustment Tuning Lesson #16 - The Baldassin-Sanderson Temperament: Part 2, Dividing the F3-F4 Octave Into Six Equal Parts PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995jan.pdf Technical Lesson #17 - Bridle Wire & Pedal Adjustments Tuning Lesson #17 - The Baldassin-Sanderson Temperament: Part 3, Completing the F3-F4 Temperament PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995feb.pdf Technical Lesson #18 - Vertical Troubleshooting - Diagnosing the Bobbling Hammer Tuning Lesson #18 - Parallel Interval Tests PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995mar.pdf Technical Lesson #19 - Vertical Troubleshooting - Repairing the Sticking Key Tuning Lesson #19 - Tuning 8:4 and 10:5 Octaves in the Low Bass PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995may.pdf Technical Lesson #20 - Grand Regulation - Part 1: Keyframe Bedding Tuning Lesson #20 - Refining the Midrange with Contiguous Interval and P5/P4 Comparison Tests PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995jun.pdf Technical Lesson #21 - Grand Regulation - Part 2: Positioning the Keyframe Tuning Lesson #21 - Treble: Part 1 - The M3-M10-M17 Test PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995jul.pdf Technical Lesson #22 - Grand Regulation - Part 3: Hammer Travel, Angle and Spacing Tuning Lesson #22 - Treble: Part 2 - Checks and Balances PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995aug.pdf Technical Lesson #23 - Grand Regulation - Part 4: Spacing, Squaring & Leveling Tuning Lesson #23 - Single Octave Tuning in the High Treble PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995sep.pdf Technical Lesson #24 - Grand Regulation - Part 5: Jack Centering, Wippen Spacing & Backcheck Alignment Tuning Lesson #24 - Tuning Contiguous Thirds to Start a Temperament PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995oct.pdf Technical Lesson #25 - Grand Regulation - Part 6: Choosing Hammer Blow & Key Dip Settings for Proper Aftertouch Tuning Lesson #25 - Refining the Bass PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995nov.pdf Technical Lesson #26 - Grand Regulation - Part 7: Setting White Key Dip Tuning Lesson #26 - Prototype Master Tuning Session PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1995dec.pdf Technical Lesson #27 - Grand Regulation - Part 8: The Relationship Between Let-Off & Drop PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996jan.pdf Technical Lesson #28 - Grand Regulation - Part 9: Adjusting Jack Position, Repetition Lever Height, Let-off & Drop PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996feb.pdf Technical Lesson #29 - Grand Regulation - Part 10: Adjusting Hammer Blow Distance & Sharp Key Dip PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996mar.pdf Technical Lesson #29(2) - Grand Regulation - Part 11: Adjusting Backcheck Angle & Checking Distance PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996apr.pdf Technical Lesson #30 - Grand Regulation - Part 12: Adjusting Repetition Springs PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996may.pdf Technical Lesson #32 - Grand Regulation - Part 13: Overview of the Grand Damper System & Correction of Fluggish Dampers PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996jun.pdf Technical Lesson #33 - Grand Regulation - Part 14: Adjusting Grand Dampers for Even Lift from the Key & Pedal PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996jul.pdf Technical Lesson #34 - Grand Regulation - Part 15: Adjusting the Grand Damper Stop Rail & Sustain Pedal PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1996aug.pdf Technical Lesson #35 - Grand Regulation - Part 16: Adjustment of the Shift Pedal, Sostenuto, Hammer Rail & Key Stop Rail ---- Learning to Pass the PTG Tuning Exam 1. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1989nov.pdf Introduction 2. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1989dec.pdf Structure, Scoring 3. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990jan.pdf Pitch 4. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990mar.pdf Midrange 5. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990may.pdf Bass 6. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990jun.pdf Treble 7. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990jul.pdf High Treble 8. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990aug.pdf Stability 9. PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990sep.pdf Unisons Sumrell-Stebbins Contiguous 3rds technique PTG\Journal\1992-1995\Papers\1994dec.pdf "Picasso" tuners, theoretical beat rates and reality: PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1988apr.pdf David Stanwood & Touchweight PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990oct.pdf PTG\Journal\1984-1991\Papers\1990nov.pdf Renner Back Action Installation PTG\Journal\2000-2002\PTG\Papers\2001aug.pdf Ed Sutton series on "Ear Training" PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1999jul.pdf "Part 1" PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1999aug.pdf "The Overtone Series" PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1999sep.pdf "Hearing Inside the Brain" PTG\Journal\1996-1999\Papers\1999oct.pdf "Hear More Beats Better" Owen Jorgensen "For instructions on how to tune the historical temperaments discussed in this series, the reader is referred to the following issues of the Piano Technicians Journal: December 2001, pages 18-22. July 1996, pages 30, 31. February 1996, pages 28, 29. 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