Dale~
(For some reason I got this same reply from both you and Jon Page, (except
Jon's was full of question marks) --not sure what's happening. So I will
respond to you both. Although it really looks like you are the one who
originally sent the message. (The Genuine Article.)) What do you think Jon
is up to?
Dale~
Thanks for the excellent info.
One funny thing someone wrote that I read recently was: when you expect to
be able to mike the pins and find different sizes for bass to treble, the
Diamond pins, because of their consistency, will not provide you this
variety! (ha ha!)
But honestly, who among us wants to have to mike every pin?
On the other hand, we shouldn't always just assume that we are getting what
we are told. We do need to check up on parts quality, at least from time to
time. I do mike samples from the sets of pins I use. If they seem
consistent, I don't mike them all. If they seem inconsistent, or if I find
in the process of stringing that some seem looser than others, or feel
funny, I usually find myself miking a lot more of them before I put them in.
The fact that Denros seem to run .002" smaller than specified is also
something I have observed. Sometimes it works out fine, other times I wish
the pin were what they say it is. Time is money, and we do depend a lot on
our parts suppliers to provide uniform, acceptable parts that we don't have
to mess around with.
When you say shop-made 1/4-sawn blocks, does that mean you make them up from
scratch? Glue them up and all? That's admirable. (But a lot of work, isn't
it? Wouldn't it just be easier to go with a Bolduc block? Or have you found
some inconsistencies, like with tuning pins? ;-). You must have some very
accurate woodworking machines: planers, table saws, and a nice clamping
press. What kind of glue would you use, that wouldn't cause the oxide rings
on the tuning pin threads?
I haven't tried making my own pinblocks, or tuning pins yet; although I know
it's possible.
When I had to work on some of the Weiler pianos from St. Petersburg that
were coming in during the 1990s, I discovered a lot of the pins would break
on some pianos. The pins did not look very consistent in quality, and I
ultimately found out from the rep that they made the tuning pins up
themselves at the piano factory from the spools of thick "tuning pin wire",
and hand swaged them, etc. Some of the pianos had to have all the pins
removed and new Denro or higher quality pins installed, under warranty,
because of the tuning pin breakage issue.
~Kendall Ross Bean
PianoFinders
www.pianofinders.com <http://www.pianofinders.com/>
e-mail: kenbean at pianofinders.com
Connecting Pianos and People
We concluded that it works better on paper than it does on wood."
- A company that had just built a prototype of a new woodworking tool
from the inventor's plans.
? Hi Kendall
? Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the
Japanese pins.? The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly
have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in
true size.? The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the
stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that
doens't need a true sized pin.? They also make a 3 1/2 size pin.? Nifty aye?
? The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut
& then plated?over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used
them at one time.
? For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from
the Diamond made pins.
? For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass &
smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as
consistent as finding something truly straight.? Just try running a
micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see.
It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.
?? My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round?but
to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly
occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set.? ughh.? SO
diamonds are? more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins
very often anymore?& they are as reliable as any we've tried
??
?regards
--
Regards,
Jon Page
_____
From: erwinspiano at aol.com [mailto:erwinspiano at aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 6:45 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: Nature of tuning pins
For what it's worth I like the look of shiny Nickel pins
better and they matche more things shiny on the pianos these days ... If
diamond would cut the thread after plating, I'd use them. Originality has
nothing whatsoeverto do with my thought process.....but that's jsut me.
Dale
Hi Kendall
Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the
Japanese pins. The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly
have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in
true size. The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the
stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that
doens't need a true sized pin. They also make a 3 1/2 size pin. Nifty aye?
The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut
& then plated over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used
them at one time.
For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from
the Diamond made pins.
For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass &
smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as
consistent as finding something truly straight. Just try running a
micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see.
It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.
My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round but
to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly
occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set. ughh. SO
diamonds are more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins
very often anymore & they are as reliable as any we've tried
regards
Dale Erwin
Hi Kendall
Our pin of choice are Blued, Diamond brand pins. On occasions we use the
Japanese pins. The difference for us is that the Diamond Blued pins clearly
have a cut thread that is not blued over & they are far more consistent in
true size. The Nippon Denro typically run on average .002 smaller than the
stated size, which can be a good thing when repinning an original block that
doens't need a true sized pin. They also make a 3 1/2 size pin. Nifty aye?
The diamond nickel /chrome plated pins appear to have had the threads cut
& then plated over which I dislike & don't trust this though I ahve used
them at one time.
For my Shop made 1/4 cut maple blocks I've had the best uniform fit from
the Diamond made pins.
For years Trix miked all the pins in a set & put the largest in the bass &
smallest in the trebles. Finding something truly round is about as
consistent as finding something truly straight. Just try running a
micrometer on a few sets and on differing points on the pin & you'll see.
It's a good thing wood is pliable & forgiving.
My friends once had a set of the Diamond that was oblong/out of round but
to my knowledge this was the only one we've ever heard of. This anomaly
occurred during the time when we mic'd every pin... every set. ughh. SO
diamonds are more expensive but not when you consider we don't mic pins
very often anymore & they are as reliable as any we've tried
regards
Dale Erwin
Hi, I haven't posted to the listserve before so let's see if this works.
I had some questions about the different types of tuning pins and wondered
if someone here could answer them. (I'm trying to write an article about
tuning pins).
It might be nice to have some discussion on something that many technicians
seem to take for granted: why tuning pins come in the types and form that
they currently do.
(This may have all been covered before somewhere in the Archives, but if it
was, I couldn't find it. So if it's there, I apologize in advance; could
someone just point me to where it is? Thanks.)
I've attached a photo for reference.
The photo refers to the three basic types of tuning pins we routinely see.
(These were all photographed together at the same time on the same white
background. The photo is "unretouched." -The colors in the photo seem to be
fatihful to the genuine articles.)
On the far left is a blued steel pin, in the middle a nickel plated pin, and
on the far right a nickel plated/blued thread pin. (The end pins are Nippon
Denro, the middle pin I think from an Asian piano, maybe Kawai, as it seems
to be metric.)
The pin in the middle has generally fallen into disrepute (I think I know
why, because the threads are plated, right?) -but perhaps we need to
re-examine this. Maybe this type of pin is still valid for certain extreme
humidity applications?
The following questions pertain mainly to the "blued" vs "nickel-blued
pins".
The questions I have are:
1) Why are the threads on the "blued steel" pin a different color than on
the "nickel-blued" pin? (also - Why aren't the the threads on the "blued"
pin the same color as the unthreaded portion of the pin?)
2) If the threads on the "nickel-blued" pin are cut after nickel plating,
(which should remove the plating on the threads right?) and then are heated
in the bluing oven, why aren't they the same color blue as the unthreaded
part of the "blued" pin?
3) I am speculating that perhaps the threads on the blued pin are cut after
bluing (which removes the bluing, to a certain extent, just like it removes
the layer of nickel plating on the nickel blued pin) while the threads on
the nickel blued pin are blued after cutting. Does the order in which the
operations are done affect the quality of the thread? Does having to cut
through nickel plating produce an inferior thread?
4) Would anyone here care to restate why the blued pins (as opposed to
nickel-blued) are preferred over the nickel-blued by many piano technicians?
5) What is the real purpose of the threads on the tuning pin, (besides to
help back the pin out in restringing. One source I have read says the
threads make it easier to turn the pin in the pinblock (as opposed to an
unthreaded pin). Any thoughts on this?
6) Today apparently all tuning pins have "cut" threads, as opposed to
"rolled" threads. Why is this? What does "rolled" threads mean? Why would
they be inferior to cut threads?"
7) Catherine Beilefeldt, in her book "The Wonders of the Piano", in
describing the process at AMSCO (when it was still around), says that there
both the nickel-blued and blued pins were blued after threading. Does anyone
know if Nippon Denro does it differently? How about Fly Brand? Diamond?
8) What, exactly, are the infamous "reverse cut" threads that were touted so
highly by certain sales reps and dealers of Japanese pianos?
9) What about Larry Fine's and Art Reblitz's contention that if this were
really the case (if the "reverse cut" or "reverse thread" pin turned more
easily in one direction than the other) it would wear the pin block out
faster?
10) Why, really, did manufacturers (except Bosendorfer) stop using tapered
pins?
I have a number of books that touch on the manufacture of piano tuning pins,
but none that really seems to have more than a superficial understanding of
why tuning pins are made the way they are today.
If anyone knows of a reference work or resource that would have the history
of the development of tuning pins, or an article in the PTJ (or even a
thread in the CAUT or Pianotech archives) that addresses these issues, I
would be very grateful if they would let me know where I can find it. You
can either post your answers on the listserve, ideally, where all could
benefit, or e-mail me personally at address below, if you prefer.
Sincerely,
Kendall Ross Bean
PianoFinders
(e-mail: <mailto:kenbean at pianofinders.com> kenbean at pianofinders.com)
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