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Ron O. wrote: "And the brand name is?"
Knabe. Late 1890s. The belly rail is a laminate of four pieces of white =
ash that together measure a robust 6 inches (150 mm) tall by 8 inches =
(200 mm) wide. (Didn't feel any pressing need for additional bracing on =
this belly rail!) The rim on this rascal is 18 laminations of white ash =
that total a full 80 mm wide! I built the new bridges for this piano out =
of alternating laminations of hard maple and white ash - so as not to =
interrupt the circle of sound (low end of the bass bridge shown below). =
;-) (Anyone wanting a higher resolution of any of these pictures, =
please drop me an email.)
I like how you tapered the head of your fish so as to extend it well =
over the belly rail for a solid attachment. Great idea. I wish I had =
thought of that when I installed a fish on a Baldwin grand (with a =
narrow belly rail) recently. I can see that there is plenty of vertical =
space to do that. Next time..... Below is a picture of the Baldwin =
treble rim area (fish is made up of epoxied-together scrap hard maple =
that was laying around the bandsaw on the floor) (treble brace in =
picture was added for belly rail support).
One thing I feel the need to make clear. If you like my woodworking, =
please feel free to give me all the credit due. But I am barely =
scratching the surface of Piano Belly Design 101. Del Fandrich is the =
brain-power and architect behind all these modifications I am doing to =
these pianos. He designs the rim modifications, the new soundboard =
panel, the rib scale and array, and the new stringing scale. I simply =
turn his drawings and design specifications into wooden musical wonders. =
And BTW, he is offering his piano redesign services to rebuilders. =
Contact him for further information. (See about half-way down on this =
link - http://www.pianobuilders.com/homeframe.html#trade .) I feel very =
fortunate to have had his experienced and innovative input into these =
projects. And as long as I am identifying the brain-power input for some =
of my work, I also have to thank Ron Nossaman who has been a very =
valuable resource in helping me sort out some of the complexities of =
these design changes and their associated ramifications - he is also =
very well informed on the elements of piano redesign.
Dale E. wrote: "Looking at my Mason double A project I notice just how =
toooo much board is behind the bridge. Its' simply cavernous. It's not =
to late to put in a fish This has got me thinking again. Is there a =
percentage of board to remove formula that seems usual?"
But then, as soon as you start changing the lengths of ribs, it would =
follow that rib cross-sectional dimension(s) should likely change =
(assuming, of course, they were well-dimensioned originally).
It has long been a head-scratcher for me when I think of soundboard =
builders that "reproduce" an original Steinway soundboard. To the best =
of my knowledge, most soundboard builders cut their ribs in a 60-foot =
arc (or there about) and copy the original dimensions. Steinway uses =
flat ribs are relies on panel compressive strength (or lack thereof) to =
maintain crown (or not). Seems to me cutting an arc into the rib =
significantly changes the soundboard design - the ribs in these two =
designs are, at least in part, performing very different functions. Why =
doesn't this approach incorporate a change in rib dimensions? Has this =
been a trail-and-error evolution to the conclusion that it doesn't seem =
to matter much. Has there been some sort of engineering input along the =
way? Is this just in reverence to the wisdom of the original masters? Or =
is it if it looks the same, it is the same?
Terry Farrell
terry@farrellpiano.com
www.farrellpiano.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Erwinspiano@aol.com=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Recycled technology-cutoff bar
Happy New year Ron
Great to hear from you & good of you to remove your head from the =
piano long enough to post. It's always good to see what's up/new
Good Post & enjoyed the design in the pics. Beautiful work. I =
especially liked the ideas about the beams & belly needing more stiffnes =
from the maple ones you installed.. This makes a great deal of sense to =
me. In hind sight what doesn't make sense is so much goes into a fine =
laminated rim in some American pianos & then the belly rails so weak due =
to laminated softwoods. This has been in my mind for a while now. I'd =
truly Like to here the 225 in the picture. After all design is great =
when the end result produces a sound never/rarely heard before. I should =
think that a piano so constructed should sustain for a very long time in =
every register with tonal color to live for.
Is this so?
Looking at my Mason double A project I notice just how toooo much =
board is behind the bridge. Its' simply cavernous. It's not to late to =
put in a fish This has got me thinking again. Is there a percentage of =
board to remove formula that seems usual?
Thanks & Blessings
Dale Erwin
Terry, Dale and all,
From what can be seen, that grand looks like a pretty well thought =
out design, with a better distribution of back beams and a generously =
dimensioned cross beam. And the brand name is?
Dale wrote;
Buy the way what is the purpose of the wooden block filling in =
the treble. It looks like it completely eliminated the treble board area =
or is it the picture?
Terry has fitted a treble section cut-off to reduce what I also =
regard as excessive sound board area behind the bridge in the treble =
section. If you look at the panel-belly rail contact in the top string =
section, adequate treble area remains. While it might look to be less =
than desirable to those who are used to looking at Steinway pianos with =
the board removed, this piano which Terry has worked on has a =
main-belly-rail section made from two thicknesses glued together. =
There's a lot of belly rail acreage underneath that treble section of =
the board.
The belly rail of our 225 piano is similarly constructed, with two =
30 mm thicknesses of Rock maple glued together to produce a belly rail =
which is effectively a 60 mm thick section of solid maple. The entire =
belly rail assembly in our piano is made from Rock Maple, while the =
cut-off is made from Australian Antarctic Beech and Silky Beech.
An image of 225 piano no.4 with a 60 mm thick main belly rail =
section can be found at;
http://www.overspianos.com.au/ctoff.html
With the Steinway D pianos from Hamburg, the belly rail comprises a =
single 30 mm thick section of Red Beech. I suspect that small total =
sectional size of this piece is why Steinway glue the key bed to the =
belly rail, since it will help what I suspect to be an under-engineered =
belly rail to support the sound board.
An image of the '62 Hamburg D case we recently re-boarded can be =
viewed at;
http://www.overspianos.com.au/stdctoff2.jpg
A similar treble cut-off to Terry's can be seen fitted to this =
piano. The laminated bass side corner cut-off reduces considerably the =
excessive sound board area of the original design, and the resultant 900 =
+ mm middle order ribs will better resist premature collapse. The =
original laminated sound board cut-off and =
belly-rail-sound-board-support-beam are made as single bent lamination, =
which is a good idea. As with Terry's modified sound board area, we left =
the original cut-off in place since it won't do any harm. Furthermore, =
it saves us having to insert stiffening sections across the cut-off fill =
panel.
The original D's treble-section belly rail design can be seen better =
in the following image.
http://www.overspianos.com.au/stdctoff1.jpg
In addition to the treble cut-off, we have fitted an extra back beam =
in place of the original 'Steinway bell' to better support both the =
belly rail and the hitch plate of the iron plate in the top string =
section. With reference to the image and text below, note the original =
construction of the belly rail assembly.
The lower piece of the original belly rail is the 30 mm thick main =
belly rail beam of European Red Beech (which is also glued to the keybed =
of a D). Then there is a 30 mm section of pine or some other light wood =
(distinguishable in this image by the visible knott). This piece is =
necessary to allow sufficient room in the action bay for housing the =
damper levers. This piece is made from Rock Maple in our piano. Above =
this we see the laminated Maple/Bubinga mahogany piece which supports =
the sound board across the belly. The most surprising aspect of this =
design is why Steinway used such a light-weight wood to join the main =
Red Beech belly rail span to the Maple/Bubinga laminate.
Structurally, the belly rail/sound board connection, in all grand =
pianos, is already at a strength disadvantage when compared to the rim, =
since there is considerable horizontal offset between the main belly =
rail member and the belly rail assembly's connection with the sound =
board. On this list, much justifiable ridicule has been levelled at =
several pianos of Asian origin for using 'select hardwood' Luaun in the =
rim, belly rail and back beams. The fill piece of pine in this concert =
grand would seem not to be any better when it comes to material =
strength. Could it be that since the pine piece can't be seen in this =
concert grand once the sound board is installed, that it found its way =
into the product as a cost cutting measure? Surely not!
Happy new year fellow listees,
Ron O.
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