over-all tuning discussions, was How we hear

[ilex cameron ross]

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Re: How we hear to JeneetahDavid Anderson -
Apologies if my original question sounded at all terse; didn't think about
it until I saw it in reply-mode. Please bear with me if you've already
covered this, as I'm sure I've probably missed some bits of this
conversation in places until recently. When you say "15 seconds" - could you
go into more detail? IE, are you listening for 15 seconds to the unison each
time you're moving the pin until it's in place, or is the 15 seconds the
final "test" listen? I've been thinking about this ever since I read it
while I'm on the job. When I started tuning, I had the original goal set by
my mentor/employer to get my time down to an hour every tuning, as we were
contracted with a school and often the only opportunity to tune a piano was
in the hour-long gap between classes. So, I've had to mathematically section
out my tunings at times, in fractions of an hour. If your 15-second method
takes you an hour and a half (which is my average "comfortable and pretty"
tuning time now, because I *can* take that option), how long do your unisons
take you, octaves, temperament, etc.? I raise this question out of curiosity
to anyone and everyone reading this. I've actually sat there with a watch
and timed my unisons, and I can get about 3 trichord *notes* (five to six
unisons) done in a minute, on a really good day.

Andre (if you catch this!) -
Am encouraged to hear of your tuning technique (where you explained you pull
with your body weight and actually *feel* the pin turning rather than "jerk"
or "bump" tuning). This is typically what I do, although I am far from
mastering a non-hard-strike-test-blow technique!

David Love -
Regarding your comments below, that first few seconds I think is more easily
described by what an even-slightly-out-of-tune unison sounds like. To me,
there is always an odd twang at the attack of the note, even when the unison
is just barely phasing. When it's perfectly clean - there's nothing but pure
tone there. On a *good* piano, that is! ;)

I am really getting into all of the feedback on this discussion! Already my
bass has taken on a new quality and consistency, as I've picked up others'
explanations and descriptions of bass tuning, and this whole topic of unison
hearing and pin-turning-and-setting techniques is great. I'll admit I
haven't been so good about reading books on tuning, but even with what I
have read, it's still very beneficial to get so many opinions and
descriptions real-time!

Does anyone want to open the floor for discussion on high treble???

Thanks again,
ilex
  -----Original Message-----
  From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On
Behalf Of David Love
  Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:57 PM
  To: 'Pianotech'
  Subject: RE: How we hear


  Trying to listening out 15 seconds I think is excessive and unnecessary.
First of all, most of the piano won’t give you 15 seconds of usable sustain.
Second, it makes the job take too long.  Third, if there is any benefit of
listening beyond, say, 5 seconds is so negligible as to probably not even be
measurable.   A dead on unison will have a specific characteristic that will
be evident within the first few (3-5) seconds.  I can only describe the
sound as one of the tone closing up or folding up as the attack envelope
dissipates.  In the past it has sometimes been referred to as “tune the
unisons dead”.  You can hear this right away.  The other issue is when you
should actually take the time to check your unisons by hanging onto the note
for an extended period of time.  I would say that only in the final phase of
checking should that be done.  I go through and tune unisons as I go,
listening beyond the attack for maybe 1-3 seconds depending on what section
of the piano I am in.  In the final phase, which is really just a final
check of each unison, I go through each note one at a time and allow the
note to sustain for maybe 5 seconds in the lower part of the piano and
somewhat less in the upper part of the piano. Overall, I do this final test
with a fairly soft touch (p) and listen for this folding up following the
attack.  If I hear the unison opening up I mute first one side then the
other and compare to determine which side is out.  If both sides are equally
out then I mute the center string and if the outer strings are clean it
tells me that the center string has probably moved. If I think the center
string may have moved, I go back and double check the interval tuning on
that note.   At the very upper end of the piano I am hitting the note
probably every 1 second or so with a soft touch and listening to the
character of the unison rather than trying to detect a “phase”.



  David Love
  davidlovepianos@comcast.net

  -----Original Message-----
  From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
Behalf Of ilex cameron ross
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:07 PM
  To: Pianotech
  Subject: RE: How we hear to Jeneetah



  So, with this 15 second rule, how long does it usually take you to tune a
piano?



  just curious,

  ilex

    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On
Behalf Of David Andersen
    Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:45 PM
    To: Pianotech
    Subject: Re: How we hear to Jeneetah

      Hi,

      Maybe you should keep on making soft blows, but try to hit the key
quickly, without listening to the note during 15 sec like you said.
      That way you'll be able to hear the "attack" of the note, the first
stage of the sound that is produced.
      Having a clear and pure sounding attack is very important for me, and
I've never succeeded in having a clear attack when tuning with listening to
the note more than 2 or 3 seconds.


    Sorry, Quentin, but I absolutely disagree; listening to the unison all
the way out to silence is the only way that works, for me, to get the note
completely still, completely blooming and rich. Period.

    That said, it really doesn’t matter, ultimately, HOW you get a piano to
sound and feel beautiful; it just matters that you CAN.

    Best of the day,

    David Andersen

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