hammers and soundboards

[Horace Greeley]

---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment


Andr=E9,

Perfect - wish I could write like this...I could not agree more.

Thanks very much.

Horace


At 12:37 PM 10/1/2004, you wrote:

>On 1-okt-04, at 15:30, David Love wrote:
>
>>The evidence of different soundboards (and soundboards in various
>>conditions) needing hammers of varying densities is so abundant in the
>>piano circles that I run in that I don't even know what to say to those
>>who are interested in this possibility except try it for yourself and
>>see.  You wouldn't put a very hard Renner hammer designed for a
>>Boesendorfer
>
>
>I do not agree with you...
>I had my first factory training at B=F6sendorfer in Wien, and the emphasis=
=20
>on my training there was voicing.
>Their hammers are not "very hard", they are kind of medium hard, just like=
=20
>most Renner hammers.
>The B=F6sendorfer sound is not based on a rock hard hammer, as most=
 European=20
>technicians know, but it is a regular Renner hammer which they turn into a=
=20
>romantic hammer "with a core".
>On the other hand, as far as making a 'characteristic sound', to me=20
>personally it does not matter how hard a hammer is. If it is very hard,=20
>I'll 'bang' it down to the desired level. It is only a nuisance because it=
=20
>takes more muscle and more sweat.
>
>
>>on a piano that would sound best with a Ronsen soft Bacon
>>felt hammer--
>
>B=F6sendorfer uses Renner hammers and have done so for a very long time.=20
>According to me, they have never bought Ronsen hammers nor Bacon felt=
 hammers.
>They used to buy Weickert felt in the past, switched over to VFG felt=20
>because the Weickert Filz factory was not able to produce during the=20
>f!@!@$%^&* communist period and nothing more reasonable was available, and=
=20
>immediately switched again to Wurzen when that 'right felt' was available=
=20
>again in the early nineties, like most European piano factories and like=20
>Yamaha (for their concert grand, the CFIII-S).
>
>
>>and there are many such examples out there.  A lengthy
>>explanation as to why that might be is more than I am prepared to get
>>into at this point but in as much as new soundboards require different
>>types of hammers (think Yamaha hammers on a NY Steinway or vice versa)
>>so will old ones.
>
>>An old ugly Yamaha that probably sounded ok with a
>>Yamaha hammer when it was new, may very well sound better with a softer
>>Wurzen hammer
>
>Wurzen hammers are not particularly soft David. It depends on the buyer=20
>who orders the hammers. Schimmel for instance wants rock hard hammers=20
>because they have a machine to pre-voice their hammers.
>If anyone buys a Renner Schimmel hammer set from da Renner shelf, that=20
>person will curse his bad luck because voicing down those hammers will=20
>take hours of again muscle and rivers of sweat. 'Our' Renner hammers are=20
>not that granite hard, because we ask the Renner Company for a 'certain=20
>kind' of firmness or hardness.
>The older Yamaha I was writing about last night was actually an older=20
>Yamaha from the early seventies. The soundboard had not really lost any=20
>crown yet but the hammers were worn out completely, and so were the=
 strings.
>
>If we had installed new Yamaha hammers (after restringing), it would have=
=20
>sounded much better but the AA Wurzens gave it a whole new quality it had=
=20
>never known before.
>A softer hammer, generally speaking, would have given it the sound of a=20
>"wet news paper".
>
>
>>now that it's older and responding differently and tends
>>to support my point.  The evidence is at least empirical whatever the
>>science may or may not convince you of.  While a medium hammer may give
>>the most flexibility to go either way on many pianos, there will be
>>cases where hammers which fall at one end of the spectrum or the other
>>will be the better fit.
>
>I do not agree with you. A given soundboard has a 'certain' personality,=20
>and the personality will always be the same, except that the physical=20
>'force' of that personality will diminish, just like with older people :=20
>their personality is intact but their physical strength has gone down over=
=20
>the years.
>When the crown of an older soundboard had lost its major power, the sound=
=20
>gets thinner and weaker, and with physical 'distortions', and that is what=
=20
>we call 'older'. The character however is still there but maybe less=20
>'predominant' and with the shortcomings of old age like brittle bones,=20
>weaker organs, and alzheimers.
>There are certain aspects that could 'amplify' that weaker personality,=20
>and those aspects are for instance new strings and/or new hammers.
>Just amplifying that older 'personality'  actually creates the problem we,=
=20
>as technicians, always encounter because we just energize the voice of the=
=20
>old personality, but not the muscle and bone structure, so to speak.
>In other words : if we install a granite hard hammer on an old piano, we=20
>give it a granite like loud old voice and if we install softer hammers we=
=20
>hear a renewed but velvety old voice.
>Through that voice we hear a more, or less, amplified personality, but=20
>also the amplified weaknesses of an older body. In yet more other words :=
=20
>installing new hammers is just a cosmetic operation. The eye lashes maybe=
=20
>short or long, but unfortunately it is still very clear that this lovely=20
>old lady is ninety years old, whatever the well known possible disguises.
>
>There is however an other factor in play here :
>As I explained before, there are soundboards (personalities) which=20
>predominantly 'show' higher overtones. Bechstein soundboards are like that=
=20
>: their treble section is usually rather brilliant, where their bass=20
>section is usually 'under developed'.  In that case, when we install new=20
>hammers (may they be hard or soft) we have to use a voicing technique=20
>where we put the emphasis on getting out the lower partials as much as=20
>possible. With Steinways it is the opposite : not creating a hammer crown=
=20
>which causes the instrument to give more overtones is like putting a bag=20
>over the head : it sounds poorly.
>
>Then there is the choice of hammers, or actually the choice of hammer felt=
 :
>Roughly speaking we have the four major hammer felts we all know : the=20
>Wurzen predominantly used by Renner (about 90%), the VFG felt=20
>predominantly used by Abel (about 90%), the Royal George felt (of late) we=
=20
>find on millions of Yamaha's, and the Bacon felt used primarily in the USA.
>All four felts are made of sheep's wool but have been fabricated in=20
>different ways, and all four have totally different characteristics,=20
>whether we like it or not.
>They may resemble each other because they all come from sheep's wool, but=
=20
>their manufacturing process is quite different. The difference is what we=
=20
>hear, and that difference is what we choose. What makes this difference an=
=20
>issue here, is that some felts are used mainly in the USA and some other=20
>felts (Royal george, Wurzen and VFG) are used all over the world. In other=
=20
>words: we share a common felt experience and we base our opinions and=20
>personal taste on this experience.
>Personal taste is something we can not really discuss, well grounded=20
>opinions are another matter and that is one of the difficulties here on=20
>this list : are we talking about personal taste or are we talking about=20
>scientifically based opinions?
>The four felts I mentioned all have a different characteristic, despite=20
>their common material basis. The way these felts were made determine their=
=20
>characteristics, and those characteristics are factual elements we can=20
>determine and classify. The way these felts sound is a totally different=20
>subject and that usually leads to misunderstanding and unnecessary=20
>friction. It is not wise to discuss 'beauty' or 'ugliness'.
>
>
>>As far as how long a hammer will last, unlacquered versus lacquered; the
>>issue seems to be how much lacquer and how it is applied.  A weak
>>stiffening solution probably doesn't do much to effect the life of the
>>hammer.  But since lacquer gets harder and more brittle over time, a
>>heavily lacquered hammer will not last in terms of controllability as
>>long as an unlacquered hammer, assuming it hasn't been needled to death.
>
>To get down to the core of lacquered versus unlacquered is like this : a=20
>lacquered wool piano hammer has fibers which have been fused together into=
=20
>an almost (in varying degrees) unmovable non-elastic matter by a binding=20
>force called hammer hardener.
>This piano hammer consists of a wooden molding, a staple, and a mass of=20
>fibers which originally were resilient, with an elastic capacity which=20
>through the appliance of hammer hardening have clotted into an=20
>non-resilient and un-elastic wool mass we can compare with a very sober=20
>palet (all this depending of how much hardener was used).
>
>An unlacquered wool piano hammer has a natural resiliency (in varying=20
>degrees) and this elastic force we can use in the process of intonation.=20
>It is like the use of a multi colored palet (all this depending of how=20
>much pressure was used).
>
>Get this:
>
>Crystallized or more or less non-resilient matter, like a felt covered=20
>(but hardened) drum stick, creates a 'certain' non-or- less-resilient=20
>sound when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher overtones. The=20
>spectrum is poor because of the lack of resilience.
>Non-crystallized or more or less resilient matter, like a (non hardened)=20
>felt covered drum stick, creates a 'certain' more-or less-resilient sound=
=20
>when we hit a drum with the emphasis on higher and lower overtones. The=20
>spectrum is rich because of the present resilience.
>
>That is literally the difference between a lacquered hammer and a non=20
>lacquered hammer, and that is a fact.
>Which hammer you like is not my business.
>
>Andr=E9 Oorebeek
>
>
>
>>David Love
>>davidlovepianos@comcast.net
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org=20
>>[<mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org>mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On
>>Behalf Of Richard Brekne
>>Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:04 AM
>>To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net; Pianotech
>>Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered hammers
>>
>>...That went to claims about soundboard condition dictating
>>this or that kind of hammer. I dissagreed ...
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>pianotech list info:=20
>><https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives>http://www.ptg.org/mailman/=
listinfo/pianotech=20
>>
>>
>Andr=E9 Oorebeek
>
></blockquote></x-html>

---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/59/96/c3/8d/attachment.htm

---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--