Hi, Dean, At 11:40 AM 9/30/2004, you wrote: >Horace wrote: >I have come to the definite conclusion that talking about this issue (of >lacquer versus tension) is a complete waste on both sides Actually, that was André talking at that point...but I do agree with him. This gets longish.... Let's see if I can give you some input without starting a huge debate...which is why I wrote about not writing about this subject to begin with...anyway: >Part of my frustration with the discussion is that it does not help me and >lots of other techs who work on lower end Asian pianos that are shipped with >rock hard hammers. What are we supposed to do with these? Most of us do not >work on concert instruments all the time with high end hammers. Your point is very well taken. What are we supposed to do with these? And, no, you are right, throwing them away and starting over with something new really is not an option in most cases. So, what? Please bear with me for a bit: In the long ago, bad old days, most of what we then thought of as "lower end" pianos, whether from Asia or not, had hammers as you describe. There has been huge discussion of why that is/was over the years, most of which is fairly well documented on this list's archives and in back journal issues. The bottom line is, for whatever combination of reasons, the hammers arrive to the end user/technician sounding more like broken glass in a concrete stairwell than much of anything else. The problems were further exacerbated by issues like the (relative) lack of good factory support, a complete lack of interest on the part of manufacturers to "hear" the complaints of technicians, poor and/or inadequate training for technicians, and a host of other problems. So, the sales folks needed instruments that "sounded good" out of the box...the dealers did not want to be paying for pre-sales prep (surprise)...and the manufacturers did not want to hear from anyone unless it was to order more pianos...and, Oh, Yes, I almost forgot...the end purchaser of the instrument just knew that they had invested their money very wisely, purchasing the best of all possible instruments...blahblahblah...in all of this, please do not forget that, in virtually every case, the sale of an individual instrument (to the extent that it has anything to do with musical quality to begin with) rides on the very first impression that the potential mark, err, buyer has of it...very important point, because it drives everything else with which we are dealing. Moving on: In the vacuum noted above, a number of very good, well intentioned technicians came up with a wide variety of techniques that worked, and worked very well, indeed...for them. Unfortunately, then, as now, many technicians wound up working more on one brand of instrument than most others (remember, we're talking in very broad generalities here). So, one person came up with using pliers on Imadegawa hammers. Another used Glover's needles on Yamahas and Kawais. Still another used a mixture of alcohol and water; while still another person insisted that the alcohol and water also had to have fabric softener in it, etc, etc, etc,...And, _ALL_ of these methods have value, used with planning, intelligence and respect. Since that time - for the sake of argument 40 or so years ago - additional problems have been added into the mix. Most, but not all, of these relate to changes in the manufacture of pianos in general and hammers in particular. More and different additives of different kinds have been used. Hammer makers, responding to the demands of manufacturers, are (in general) producing more one-size-fits-all type of hammers...which goes along with the overall homogenizing of piano tone of the same period. (Think of Les' comments about his Knabe in relation to newer instruments...with which I also generally agree.) So, having painted a fairly large picture with an exceptionally large brush...Let's see about your question: "What are we supposed to do with these?" First - Understand that there is no magic bullet. There just isn't. No one-size-sits-all solution. That is the one point that is pretty much black-and-white in this whole discourse. Each piano is different each time you see it. That is the nature of the beast. Then - once that reality settles in, work out a set of procedures with which _you_ are comfortable. Certainly try different methods, but, ultimately, work with the tools and procedures which give you the best ROI for your personal time, talent and capital. To provide a frame of reference - what I might do is going to be predicated on my perceptions of a given instrument when I see/hear/touch/feel/experience it. With one instrument, it might well be needles. And, with the very next one, it might be steam. OK - now, so that this does not all come off as a giant copout - Let's assume for a moment, that you and I are looking at some "lower end Asian piano" and that the hammers are as you describe. And, let's assume that the piano is pretty much OK except for the tone...which is harsh and brittle, even at "pp" and simply breaks up and sounds nasty at anything over a solid "F"; and, importantly, that we actually have some time to make some careful decisions...chances are very good that I am going to want to try samples of water, alcohol and water, and alcohol, water and fabric softener on some representative notes (usually two or three in each section, plus at the major scale breaks), most likely putting whatever amount seems appropriate under the crown in front of the molding and/or into the shoulders, then leave it alone for several hours (preferably overnight) before doing anything more...DO NOT RUSH THIS STEP... Returning to the instrument, check each note that has been treated throughout the full dynamic range possible...going up and down from inaudible to simply blasting away several times. Picking out the tones that have had the most consistent overall "improvement", check to see if they were all treated the same way. Hopefully, the majority of the ones that sound the most "improved" have been treated the same way. If so, go ahead and treat all the other hammers as appropriate - Once this is done, wait again for whatever solution to fully evaporate before doing anything else. Then shape, tune, regulate, etc, etc, etc. I use the word: "appropriate" a good deal. To me, this means trying to take the whole of a given situation into account...in this case, for example, if a hammer and/or section already sound OK and are roughly in the zone of your target tone/volume, the you would leave it/them alone. CAVEAT - DO NOT USE THIS METHOD ON HAMMERS WHICH HAVE BEEN CHEMICALLY HARDENED...unless, of course, you have plenty of time and money to throw away should disaster ensue... I guess that the point with all of this is that, yes, there are some of us who do have substantive experience with "concert" instruments with "high end" hammers...each of which brings with it high end problems too numerous to mention. Please remember that, by and large, those of us who do that have also spent a fair amount of time working on a wide range of other instruments, too; and, I do hope, have not forgotten that some of the most moving and memorable performances are those which happen in private homes, where the featured artists are the beloved children of doting parents...and, we have the privilege of helping them create music. On more practical level, in what now seems like another lifetime, I taught some voicing classes at various ptg conventions that seemed generally well received. A few years later, Bob Davis and Dale Irwin did a very good class called, I think, something like "Everyday Voicing". There have been a few others over time; but I am not up on what the more recent offerings have been. Perhaps something will be offered in KC. >BTW, I just got in a piano that I am putting new bass strings (Arledge, of >course) and hammers on. It is a Lyon & Healy 5'6", about 70 years old. >Decent sounding piano, reasonable action. Putting it up on the side to move, >I noticed that it appears to have a new beam in place along the straight >side (see attached photos). I've never seen that before. The piano was >rebuilt about 30 years ago. Looks pretty well done...should be a fun project. >I've always used Imadagawas from Schaff because they are decent enough >sounding out of the box and they suited the purpose for few hammer sets I've >replaced. After all the discussion on Wurzen hammers awhile ago I decided to >try out a set and I priced this job accordingly. Recent discussion though >has me questioning that decision. Does this middle of the road piano warrant >a set of premium hammers? Sure it does! I think that you will be pleased with the results. Further, taking this kind of step is precisely the kind of thing that folks need to do to gain real mastery of their own technique. Take it a step at a time. Give yourself time to breath. All will be well. >Also, I don't think they are original hammers and I'm not sure how faithful >the previous rebuilder was to matching them. Any suggestions? Probably the last person wasn't all that careful in matching the originals, except (hopefully) as to boring... I think that you have made a sound decision which also happens to be an investment in your personal and professional self. Stick with it. I do hope that there is something in here which is helpful to you. This is not a small subject and there really are not very many reliable references. Best regards. Horace >Dean >Dean May cell 812.239.3359 >PianoRebuilders.com 812.235.5272 >Terre Haute IN 47802 > >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf >Of Horace Greeley >Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:35 PM >To: antares; Pianotech >Subject: Re: Evidence of overlacquered hammers > > >André, > >At 09:36 AM 9/30/2004, you wrote: >. > >If somebody really likes the sound of a lacquered hammer, than so be > >it. I don't know what it is or why it is but this well never settle down. > >I gave up on that a long time ago. > >We might say that there are two schools of listening and there it ends. > >I could not agree more; which is why I so seldom post on this subject >anymore. > >As you so accurately point out, there are different techniques >required/appropriate for different hammers/pianos. For me, the only real >question has to do with whether the subject piano - that is, the one with >which I am immediately concerned - is sounding/working the best that _it_ >possibly can...without regard to brand name, model or whose parts are in it. > >All this goes to a technician's technique, what is it's range and domain; >and, what kind of command of that technique do they really have of? All >too often, these factors are what limits what can be done more than the >perceived, or often even actual, condition of the instrument. > >Best. > >Horace > > >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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