Analysis of plain wire string/wound wire break on a SteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens 1.0.6

Bernhard Stopper b98tu@t-online.de
Fri, 9 Apr 2004 22:06:46 +0200


This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
Hello Stephane,
is it possible for you to send me length and diameters for the keys that =
causing the problems?

I will do a dynamic simulation and a sound simulation with the Minimens =
to find out what might be the case. Please let me know also what kind of =
steel wire Kawai is using. MiniMens can do a sound simulation that =
reports also the longitudinal waves. I rather think it is a problem =
caused by the longitudinal waves (as Isaac Oleg metioned also earlier), =
but to do an exact simulation, it is necessary to know the value of =
youngs modulus of the core wire. (I actually only have it for R=F6slau =
steel, it varies from 201 to 207 kN/mm=B2 depending on the diameter). I =
"measured" youngs modulus of R=F6slau steel by simulating different =
diameters with the Minimens  Simulator and measured inharmonicity on =
real instruments with same settings until the spectra fit.
I don=B4t think that the problems are caused by the multiple contacts, =
because they are normal for the lower keys. on the lowest octave the =
hammer does bouncing with the string up to 3 or 4 times, thats normal.

Best regards,

Bernhard
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: St=E9phane Hanriat=20
  To: Pianotech=20
  Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 8:21 PM
  Subject: Re: Analysis of plain wire string/wound wire break on a =
SteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens 1.0.6


  Hello Bernhard,

  Very interesting post. I'm wondering if the "contact ratio" has =
something related to the "kissing noise" effect I've observed on most of =
the Kawai piano I've played. Please see below the post I sent to the =
list on the subject. I've working with Kawai Europe & Japan to try =
understanding the root cause, but they were not able to explain this =
parasitic noise to me, just saying that this is well known and likely =
due to hammer condition ??? I've never been convinced about that =
explanation, since only very few notes are impacted (few first notes =
below the break tri-cord/bi-cord) and only on the 1.78m and 1.86m =
piano...

  Personnally, as an engineer, I already made the hypothesis of multiple =
contacts with the strings in that range, creating this parasitic noise =
(see below)...
  I would be very much interested to have your feedback on this point.

  Cheers,
  Stephane Hanriat - Owner of Shigeru Kawai SK3
  ______________________________________________
  Hello List,

  I'm back with another topic I would like to share with you.

  During the process of selecting my Shigeru piano, I played a lot of =
Kawai instruments, and I found a strange noise impacting very few notes, =
but always the same notes : 23, 24 and 25. The noise looks like a =
whistling appearing at the attack, and is very easy to ear when playing =
a non legato trill at pianissimo. This noise is clearly audible on most =
of RX-2, SK2 (1.78 m), RX-3 and SK3 (1.86 m). Very difficult to ear it =
on larger instrument. RX-6 or SK6 (2.12 m) do not have it.  - sorry for =
the metric unit -:)

  I had extensive discussions on that with our french MPA who is now an =
expert to determine whether an instrument is having the noise or not. We =
have contacted Kawai in Japan. They replied that this is well known as =
"kissing noise" and that mostly all prestigious brands are facing this =
problem that originates from hammer conditions. Kawai also told us that =
Steinway has extensively studied the topic without identifying the root =
cause ; and when the problem is creating inconvenience at playing, =
Steinway is replacing the hammers...

  We made some experiments at the french Kawai show room on some RX, =
without being capable to find a reliable fix. Some pianos were not =
having this kissing noise, but most of them had it in the showroom.

  When I play grand pianos in this size range, I always discreetly check =
the stuff... but I've not seen this kissing noise as present as on the =
Kawai. I can tell you I've been cautious when selecting my Shigeru, so =
it took me 2 years to find an SK3 almost free from kissing noise (but =
not completely free).

  If some of you have an explanation and/or a fix, I would be very =
excited to learn this (and lot of MPAs too, believe me).

  Cheers,
  Stephane Hanriat, the french guy who loves the Shigeru's.


---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/38/f3/f5/69/attachment.htm

---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--


This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC