Temperaments...

[Michael Spalding]

Don,

In your zeal to make a point, don't neglect to read and understand the
posts to which you're responding.

Ron K said he was taught to use the bendability of his basson, when playing
with other instruments, to tune to them, in just  intervals.  What you say
about the  instrument probably being  designed in ET makes a lot of sense,
but Ron's post wasn't about design, it was about performing in ensemble,
and tuning to other instruments while playing.  It seems likely to me that
the two of you could agree on most of what each of you said.

You state that you tuned your trombone, 1st position, to ET.  I don't
understand.  How does one tune a single note to ET?

I play viola.  I try to tune the four strings to each other in just fifths.
In playing, I don't think of tuning like a tuner, I think musically.  I'm
not counting beats, but trying to achieve a musical harmony which is right
for that moment in that music.   It would be interesting to analyse a
recorded performance and see what kind of intervals are actually produced. 
I don't believe the just tuning of the open strings constrains me in any
significant way.  Whether they are just, slightly narrow, or slightly
expanded, probably shows up more as "octave stretch" than as a temperament
decision.  And, yes, I know most of the jokes about violas and intonation,
and have occasionally recognised myself.

peace

Mike


> [Original Message]
> From: Don Gilmore <dgilmore@kcmpi.net>
> To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Date: 4/5/2004 10:02:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Temperaments...
>
> It seems to me that you would want to tune/design wind instruments to ET.
> And I say this not to tout the Almighty Equal Temperament; I say this
> precisely because these instruments can bend pitches.  I would think that
> you would design the hole layout so that a musician can avail himself of
the
> maximum pitch-bend range.
>
> If you lay out the entire range it would take to be able to bend a given
> note to produce a pure interval when played along with any other scale
note,
> the ET pitch of that note is *exactly* in the center.  Isn't that where
you
> would want it?  It seems silly to me to design the instrument to offset
this
> center sharp or flat from ET.  What would be the point since you can bend
> the note anywhere you like anyway?  I'm sure the range of possible bending
> for an accomplished musician is probably wide enough to cover the largest
> bend, even if the instrument is designed off-center, but again, why would
> you do this?
>
> A previous poster mentioned that bassoons are tuned for "just intervals".
> This doesn't even make sense.  Just in what key?  Just between which
notes?
> I don't see how this is practical, or even possible.  Even a monophonic
> instrument has to be able to play in all twelve keys, in harmony with
other
> horns.
>
> I played the trombone in high school and college band and first position
> (closed slide) is always tuned to ET.  Violins can alter notes by changing
> the position of their fingers on the string, but what about open strings?
> Don't they tune them to ET?  And if not, why not?  They have no control
over
> them while playing at all.
>
> I'm not saying that ET sounds better than pure intervals.  Of course it
> doesn't.  But it seems to me that you must have a central base to work
from
> to be able to play in all keys.  A scheme that might make one key easier
to
> play pure intervals in would necessarily make another key more difficult.
> Why would you do this?
>
> Don A. Gilmore
> Mechanical Engineer
> Kansas City
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ron Koval" <drwoodwind@hotmail.com>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:22 AM
> Subject: Temperaments...
>
>
> > This whole temperament thing is such a tiny niche of the world, even
among
> > tuners!  I went through all my years of study as a bassoonist, assuming
> that
> > ET was the norm, yet we trained for listening and adjusting to Just
> > intervals. It wasn't until I really dug into the subject a few years ago
> > that I realized that ET only exists in fixed pitch instruments, such as
> the
> > piano and organ.   So much of the discussion is framed by what we THINK
is
> > the norm, not what actually IS the norm.   Think about that a minute. 
Not
> > in orchestras, not in bands, not in choirs, not in ensembles, ONLY when
> the
> > piano is brought into the mix does ET enter the picture.
> >
> > It becomes so obvious when you think about the speed of the thirds that
we
> > work so hard to control on the piano.  Do you think that an
> instrumentalist
> > would change the speed of the beating of the third, based on where in
the
> > scale it lies?  How impossible would that be?!  I can just imagine:
> "Let's
> > see, I'm in the key of F, so the tonic should beat at 7bps, but the
> dominant
> > should beat at around 10 bps... but wait, that's only in one octave...
oh,
> I
> > missed that measure, what's the next note?"
> >
> > That means, even though ET is accepted everywhere as the norm, it really
> > occupies a very small corner of musical expression in the world.  Anyone
> > that tries to introduce an alternate tuning runs into the brick wall of
> > ignorance about the specifics of musical tuning.
> >
> > I feel that at this point, the best thing I can do is to speak directly
to
> > pianists about the existance of playable temperaments.  I hope to
develop
> an
> > article to submit to the magazines that cater to pianists.  Something to
> do
> > with temperaments as just another way for them to add contrasts to the
> > music.  So much of what we do already as techs give pianist greater
> > contrasts, either through regulation, voicing, tuning, or rebuilding.
> >
> > Ron Koval
> > Chicagoland
> >
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