Hearing the difference (or maybe not)

[SidewaysWell1713@aol.com]

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In a message dated 12/24/02 1:47:30 AM Central Standard Time, 
remoody@midstatesd.net writes:


> I
> tuned was a straight Pythagorean.  I was surprised at how music
> still sounded like music.  There are pure "3rds" in Pythagorean
> even.  That is the most extreme temperament in that every 5th is
> pure leaving one wolf.  If the wolf occurs, yes I can hear it.
>     That lead me to wonder just how much out of tune it takes
> to make the music different enough to  be objectionable or sound
> different enough to be preferable.  You look at Meantone with 11
> 5ths flattened twice as much as ET and you might think THAT might
> sound awful, but in fact something happens where the beating 5ths
> are obscured by pure 3rds and in the "close keys" chordal music
> such as hymns, carols, and folk music sounds beautiful.  There are
> 4 wolves in Meantone so when they occur, yes I do hear the
> difference but   Meantone is only to be used in certain keys for
> its optimum effect.  I could probably pick out MT "blind" but
> haven't able to set up the test.
> 
> >but if there are any
> > sustained chords it becomes obvious.  A C-major triad in a Young
> is
> > quite different from ET and obvious if it is sustained any time
> at
> > all.  When I listened to the 2nd movement of the Pathetique on
> Ed's
> > Temperament CD it was so obvious I couldn't continue listening.
> 
> I listened to it following the score even.  To be fair I would
> have to make sure to listen to the second movement of Pathetique
> again.   Everything I heard I could not tell.  I was especially
> eager to hear the second movement of Moonlight because I can play
> some of that and it has lots of chords where  HT's are supposed to
> make the most difference.  Again nothing, and as a tuner I ended
> up listening to unisons and bass octaves.  It simply did not sound
> "different" at all,  and  for sure not different enough to say I
> could pick it out in a blind test.
> 
> This was the first recorded HT I had heard (that I know of).   And
> it has led me to believe I may be deficient hearing the "tonality"
> or "color" or intonation differences caused by other than ET.  I
> am pretty sure I can recognize MT.   If it is true that some are
> more sensitive to this tonality, do you think it can be taught to
> others who are not?   Would be like teaching harmony to singers.
>     Or is it like trying to teach to sing those who are "tone
> deaf".   Some tone deaf can't sing but appreciate and can tell
> when a song is sung in tune  or in good harmony.   Do you think it
> is the same with "temperament deaf".
>     Is this a phenomenon that can be demonstrated by blindly"
> picking out piano music on recordings from those that are in ET?
> If 3 versions of second Movement Path are played how many people
> can pick out the one in HT?  If six are played and 3 are ET and 3
> are HT, how many can tell the difference blind?
> Do you think this would be a suitable demonstration for a class or
> exhibit at the "National".    Play 5 examples of ET and 5 examples
> of HT had poll the participants?   One could burn examples onto
> one CD and randomly select the tracks.   Perhaps this could be set
> up on a web site.
> 
> > While I, personally, still prefer ET on my piano, I will
> > gladly tune any of the 77 non-ET tunings I have on my hard drive
> for
> > a customer. And I can certainly tell the difference.
> >
> > dave
> >
> 
> 

Also...> The fact that you can put 10 high quality pianists in a room
with 10
> different temperaments and find that they can not really hear
the
> difference when someone plays them doesnt really say very much.

To me it says temperament doen't matter much.  --rm


A few things about what Ric says:  In MT the 5ths are narrowed (not flatted) 
by nearly 3 times the amount they are in ET, not just twice as much.  This 
often drives a Tuner who has previously only tuned ET absolutely bonkers.  
Yet, as Ric observes, that horrible sound is "absorbed" in actual music.

I have seen over and over again these same comments and arguments, especially 
the desire on the part of the Tuner to get all of the 5ths (and octaves too) 
pure.  Here is my theory:  When you are standing there *banging* on that 
interval, it sounds best to you when get it pure, yes, but you have to 
remember that the final product must be a compromise.  If you are tuning a 
WT, you can have *some* of the 5ths pure and that does give the piano a 
certain character but I never consider that to be the most important quality 
of a temperament.

You can, after all, tune a Modified Meantone Temperament (MMT) where *none* 
of the 5ths are pure, some are even widened and have a beautiful end result.  
This goes for octaves too.  I have, for 20 years worked on octaves and can 
say with all certainty that the very best compromise involves octaves of all 
different sizes throughout the piano (regardless of chosen temperament), just 
as the best compromise involves all different sizes of 3rds and 5ths.

Of course, there are some people who are still in their *early* stages of 
experimentation but who believe that whatever they discover *today* must be 
the bees knees: 

(I said),
 "If the temperament you are using has irregularly tempered intervals, does 
it not also make sense that you may want to "temper" your octaves a little 
differently as well? "

(and the response was),
No,  that doesn't make any sense... 

But a while later, that same person was really polishing his apple...

"I intentionally sharpened the last octave of a Steinway D with my SAT last 
week.  I punched up the octave stretch so that the last note was 20 cents 
sharper than a straight FAC tuning.  NOBODY noticed!!!!!"
  
If one really believes that "temperament doesn't matter" (nor do octaves), 
then there should be a "Temperament Doesn't Matter Festival" at the National. 
 Line up a bunch of pianos, tune them all in any random way, play a bunch of 
music on each and say to yourself, "I couldn't tell one from the other" and 
you'll prove your point.

I sure as heck know the difference, one from the other and so do most HT 
practitioners.  On one hand, there are the ET only die-hards who, at the very 
slightest irregularity will say, "That's out of tune!".  They truly believe 
they are right and have *right* on their side to dictate to all others the 
one and only way to tune, *their* way.

On the other hand, there are those who believe that it is still and open 
book.  No matter what is done, it will offend someone, somewhere, somehow.  I 
accept that and keep on doing what I do, recalling the words of the great 
Blues pianist, Mose Allison, "I don't worry about a thing 'cause I know 
*nothing's* going to be all right".

Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison, Wisconsin
<A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A>

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