This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment To come up with a theory and look selectively for evidence to support it = is hardly a scientific or logical way to approach this argument. There = are many examples of composers composing in their heads and transferring = their ideas to paper. To declare in no uncertain terms that they must = have been hearing a temperament is almost laughable. Composers = certainly chose keys for a variety of reasons, as sure as there are a = variety of composers. Some claimed that certain keys had certain = inherent characteristics, I know people with perfect pitch (non = pianists), who claim that. Chopin, on the other hand, often chose keys = for almost purely pianistic reasons. Remember that he started his = students by playing in the key of B because it more naturally fit the = hand. Arguments about why people didn't use certain compositional = elements 300 years ago and to ascribe those reasons to the = characteristics of meantone temperaments fails to look at the history = and development of composition and what were considered acceptable = harmonic structures in general. So many points have been made in the = course of this discussion that defy the basics of critical thinking that = it's hard to even remember them all. There is a terrific book by a = Barbara Tuchman called "The March of Folly". It is a book about how = governments pursue policies not in their own best interest. In it she = ascribes this tendency to something in human nature. When people commit = to something and discover that there commitment may not have been well = founded, rather than reassess the situation, they tend to commit further = to their folly seeking ways to justify it. I think that is what we have = here. Which is not to say that there isn't merit to different methods = of tuning. But to argue that temperament is the foundation of all = musical composition is, in my opinion, a march of folly. David Love I=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Billbrpt@AOL.COM=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: November 02, 2001 4:59 AM Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent In a message dated 11/2/01 6:31:14 AM Central Standard Time, = A440A@AOL.COM=20 writes:=20 Tom Sivak writes:=20 <<The thought that composers compose in temperaments is ludicrous. = >>=20 (snip) To this end, I would like to=20 hear Tom's evidence that temperament didn't influence composition. = Regards,=20 Ed Foote=20 I would too. Thanks again, Ed, for answering before I had the chance = and I must say, much better than I could have. The final movement of = the 9th symphony is harmonically adventurous for its time and I have = always thought that perhaps the reason was because Beethoven's mind had = been freed of conventional constraints due to his deafness. But it sure = wasn't an example of Atonal Adventures. Why not write all kinds of = bizarre, angular phrases with sharps and flats all over the place and = end the piece with a grandiose chord in Db instead of D if there was no = influence of temperament?=20 In the perspective of music throughout the centuries, it is distinctly = tonal. The famous melody is heard all over the world, sung and played = by children learning music. The foundation of the piece is very = elementary and would have NEVER, EVER been written in a remote key = BECAUSE of the influence of cycle of 5ths temperament construction. To = think that temperament had no influence is frankly, illogical.=20 Let's also consider the Emperor Piano Concerto. Wasn't he also deaf = when he wrote that? Now, why in the world would he have chosen the = seemingly illogical key of B for the middle movement when the 1st and = 3rd movements are in Eb? Bb would have been the Dominant key. He even = had to use a trick to modulate back to Eb ant the end of the second = movement. Why go to this kind of trouble unless there is a reason?=20 The answer is that in a typical (for the period) WT, mild Meantone or = Modified Meantone, the key of B with its wide intervals provides for a = much more melodic and singing tone than would the key of Bb. Witness = the broken chords =E0 la Moonlight Sonata that avoid harsh harmony by = being broken against the soaring single note melody played by the piano. = The whole thing would have "fell apart" (as Ed recently put it), it = would have had a dead, uninteresting sound in Bb. When played in ET, = the key of B sounds virtually identical to Bb, just a half step higher = and not enough more intense to be a reason to modulate. ET takes away = some of the singing tone that the melody is supposed to have.=20 The very fact that someone would think that HT's did not influence = orchestral or keyboard writing is evidence of how ET has poisoned and = spoiled contemporary thinking about how music really ought to sound and = what the reason for choosing any particular key is. That, I personally = find ludicrous.=20 Bill Bremmer RPT=20 Madison, Wisconsin=20 ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/1c/41/f7/ae/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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