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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Richard Brekne=20
To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
Sent: June 09, 2001 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: soundboards improving with age? or what else?
(snip)
Grin... I know you dont aggree Del... and hey.. thats cool. Its one =
thing to suppose this, to observe that.. to hypothosize, reason, =
conport, and constertate.. to agree or disagree... its another thing =
entirely to declare "I have the answer"
To the best of my recollection, I have never claimed to "have the =
answer." After many years of research, experimentation and trial and =
error, I do have some answers. You are, of course, quite free to either =
accept them or not.=20
(snip)
Grin.. Del I have had a lot of such reading lying around for some =
years now.. some read some left to read some to re.read. The right =
track is a questioning one, in my mind. It is wise not to close oneself =
completely off from avenues of investigation... no matter how seemingly =
unlikely they may be..until there is real proof that they are useless.
I am one of the most questioning people around, have been for some =
time. As to whether I am wise or not is probably open to debate. But I =
chose to not waste my time on things that have no possibility of either =
improving my work (specifically) or the piano (generally).
(snip)
Grin... Del you shoulda been a politician. As you have answered your =
own question in nearly the same breath that you posed it... I will say =
no more.=20
No, Richard, politicians can rarely back up what they say. I generally =
can--even if you choose to twist it around and try to confuse things. To =
wit:
(snip)
Lets see first you tell him the old panel will sound as good as the =
new... then you tell him it wont after all...Lets. see.... sort this =
out.. Oh yea.. there was this difference between rib crowned and =
compression crowned... but WAIT... the old board was compression crowned =
wayyyy back when... it shoulda then suffered badly by compression set =
due to these expansion forces collapsing..... how can that sound the =
same as a new board that hasnt been subjected to this... even with rib =
supports... but then we got that covered too dont we ?? Its all a =
matter of stiffness and mass... and nothing else. And the only thing =
that affects these is static load stresses... Heck if we could =
reconfigure a tomatoe to be as stiff..... grin...=20
More on this below.
(snip)
Look Del... your explanation is as good as anyones...and better then =
most in my book. Just dont try selling it as the gospel cause it is =
obvious that you havent got all ends completely covered. It remains a =
hypothosis.=20
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Richard, your 'grin' just doesn't make it anymore. I think its gotten a =
bit worn out from overuse.=20
You misunderstand me and my motives for participating on this list. I am =
not trying to sell anything as gospel. I don't really care if you accept =
or reject any or all of what I contribute to pianotech. I've simply =
bumbled around for a few years picking up bits and pieces of knowledge =
along the way. I was helped along that way by some pretty remarkable men =
who, through PTG, freely shared much of their own hard-earned knowledge =
with me. I believe now I have a responsibility to do the same. And =
you're right about one thing in your little attack--I haven't got all =
ends completely covered. I doubt that I ever will. I've also never =
claimed that I do.=20
No offence meant, Richard, but in this case your attack on my technical =
credibility is itself a bit beyond credibility. So what if my response =
to Mr Frankson is hypothesis? It's a pretty solid hypothesis. And, like =
it or not the world--including the scientific world--is filled with =
working hypotheses that are used as a technical foundation to build many =
wonderful working products.=20
So, as someone much wiser than I once said, "come let us reason =
together..."=20
This little flap all started when I responded to a post from Eric =
Frankson in which he made a connection between the technology used to =
make violin soundboards and that used to make piano soundboards and you =
took offense, to quote:
"You show us...the studies that conclusively show that there are no =
significant changes in the way sound and wood inter-relate as a result =
of wood ageing, or varnishing for that matter. ...Until you can do =
this...you reside in exactly the same place as those who declare other =
unsubstantiated ideas to be fact...No offence meant Del...but =
really...You want to put an end to all the "mystikk" surrounding this =
and other such subject matter...then you need to stop blowing your own =
magic smoke first."=20
And then you wrote:
"And for the last time... nobody is comparing Violins directly to =
pianos..."
So, last things first. Actually, Mr Frankson did compare the violin to =
the piano, as he acknowledged at the close of his post. That was, after =
all, the intent of his post. He related some ancient violin making =
practices and various studies of those practices with those of the =
modern piano soundboard. Sorry, but I'd say I was well justified in =
making the assumption that "he was comparing violins directly to =
pianos...." Now, having said that, since I was responding to Mr =
Frankson, if my comments were offensive in any way and if anyone has the =
right to take issue with them, Mr Frankson does. If he was in any way =
offended by my remarks, he can let me know and I will owe him an =
apology. But he was comparing violins to pianos.=20
Now, you accuse me of "blowing [my] own magic smoke." Just what magic =
smoke is it I'm supposed to be blowing? I said, "Age has nothing to do =
with the performance of a piano soundboard. At least not age by itself." =
A fairly simple statement, I thought. I suppose you're objecting to my =
use of the word nothing out there all by itself, and possibly that was =
overly strong. Perhaps you would have preferred, "The age of the wood =
used to make a piano soundboard panel has nothing of consequence to do =
with the performance of a piano soundboard...." Or, how about, "There is =
no existing proof nor, based on the best current technology, is there =
any reasonable cause to believe, that the age of the wood used to make =
up a piano soundboard has any measurable or audible effect on the =
performance of the piano soundboard...." It's a lot more words to say =
basically the same thing.
Your critique of my comments go on at some length but to me, at least, =
they only demonstrate that you don't really understand the differences =
in operating principle between a compression-crowned piano soundboard =
and a rib-crowned piano soundboard. Or, if you do understand them, that =
you are unwilling to stretch that understanding and apply it to a new =
situation. Surely, though, your own lack of understanding is not valid =
justification for your little attack on my credibility, is it?=20
Now, to be fair, I must admit that the available literature doesn't =
really explore these differences. It's not an area that has received =
much attention over the years. This is one reason why I began my own =
studies, publishing much of what I was learning along the way. It is =
also, of course, why I suggested that you go back and study some of the =
available literature;. I know there's virtually nothing in there on the =
subject. (A bit nasty, that--sorry.) I'm one of the few who has =
published anything at all comparing the two types of soundboard systems. =
And you obviously don't like what I have to say on the subject.
You write, "You show us, refer us to, quote, or in some other sense =
document the studies that conclusively show that there are no =
significant changes in the way sound and wood inter-relate as the result =
of wood ageing, or varnishing for that matter." Well, what kind of =
documentation will be good enough for you? To the best of my knowledge =
there have been no studies directly structured to determine the =
acoustical effect of aging wood for a century or two prior to laying it =
up into a piano soundboard panel. So, you win. Or do you? If we can't =
find a conclusive study, perhaps we can still be allowed to draw some =
reasonable conclusions based on all the other work that has been done.=20
It is known, for example, that it takes a relatively substantial change =
in either a soundboard's mass or its stiffness characteristic to make an =
audible change in its acoustic tone quality. If you're unwilling to =
accept my word for that, consider the amount of cellular damage that =
takes place in the upper tenor/treble region of the soundboard panel in =
a compression-crowned soundboard assembly before the resultant decrease =
in sustain time becomes a problem. And, if you're unwilling to accept =
that, then read through Klaus Wogram's article, The Strings and the =
Soundboard, in the Five Lectures book. Especially the part on the =
influence of ribbing. He makes some pretty radical changes to the rib =
structure with only nominal changes to soundboard impedance. My own =
experience is quite similar. Or we can make--it's been =
done--measurements of soundboard's structural changes as it goes through =
various climate changes while simultaneously monitoring the piano's =
acoustic tone performance. By comparing the two over time we can get a =
fair idea of how the soundboard responds acoustically to differing =
stress conditions over that period of time. And they don't change much =
at all except in extreme cases. Soundboards, it seems, are acoustically =
rather stable structures.
So, while that "conclusive" study you're demanding hasn't yet been =
done--probably never will be--it is known that any changes--whether =
chemical or structural in nature--that take place in unstressed wood =
over the years, even as long as a century or two, are exceedingly =
slight. That, coupled with the knowledge that it takes relatively =
substantial changes to alter the tone performance of the piano =
soundboard audibly, enables me to reasonably say that the age of the =
wood used in making up a soundboard panel has no effect on the tone =
performance of the piano. In summary, Richard, I believe my statement to =
be substantially accurate, based on known facts, and not "magic smoke" =
at all.=20
Finally, about the effect of varnish on the soundboard...I can only =
refer to the studies I have done myself and have summarized several =
times on Pianotech. I don't know of any others. As you have apparently =
missed these discussions you might want to check the archives, the =
information should be in there someplace.=20
So, whether you like them or not, I think I'll stand by the statements I =
made in my response to Mr Frankson's post. If it will make you feel any =
better, I'll modify the one sentence to read as I put it above, "The age =
of the wood used to make a piano soundboard panel has nothing of =
consequence to do with the performance of a piano soundboard...." That =
is an accurate statement and is adequately backed up by current =
soundboard technology. So is my comment about soundboard finishes.=20
And, yes, the same technology that enables me to give these answers to =
Mr Frankson's question without the conclusive study you so desire fully =
explains the renewed performance of Andre's old wood/new rib soundboard =
in his Bechstein, no matter how you try to confuse the issue.
Obviously, I have offended your sense of truth, justice and general =
stability in the universe somewhere along the line. I really don't know =
what I did to warrant such an antagonistic response from you over this =
issue, but the facts are still the facts and violins are still violins =
and pianos are still pianos and violins are not yet pianos. The age of =
wood, taken by itself, is still not a factor of consequence in the =
performance of a piano soundboard. Nor, within reasonable limits, is the =
type of finish. Or, for that matter, is the complete lack of any finish. =
My response to Mr Frankson was, and remains, a substantially accurate =
one. Not a perfect one, perhaps, but a reasonable one. And if that still =
remains a problem for your rather selective sense of technical accuracy, =
you'll just have to live with it. Just as I must with your attack =
against my technical credibility.
Regards,
Del
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