newbie questions: stretching

[Carl Teplitski]

Bass:  Would you please elaborate on bass tuning
wide side of  octave - quint !??  What piano wants....
Recently had a console piano that had been driven
around the bldg. a lot during the Xmas season. Complaint
was that the bass was badddddddd!!! " It was." Found it
very hard to compromise an acceptable tuning. I tune aurally
the bass and high treble. Use an ETD and aurall method to tune
every where else. Spoke to an RPT buddy, and he sympatized
with me on this problem. He said that for the most part he tried
to compromise the same as I did. ( he uses an RCT. ) Looking
for a simpler solution to give this piano what it wants.
Many of these smaller pianos don't cooperate.

Carl

Kevin E. Ramsey wrote:

>     Look, John, and by the way, welcome newbie. Doesn't sound like a newbie
> question though. Hmmm.
>
>     All this talk about stretch is really talking about small degrees. In
> the upper treble especially, some people stretch the octave so that it's
> pure at the octave-fifth level, some people tune pure ( or slightly
> stretched ) double octaves. Some even tune octaves so that they're pure to
> the triple octave. If you tune aurally, just tune your last octave a little
> wide, and you'll probably come close to the same thing.
>     Actually, because of inharmonicity, if you tune all your octaves "pure",
> you will still introduce "stretch", just not artificial, extra,  stretch.
>     As far as the bass goes, yes it does end up on the wide side of the
> "octave-quint". "What the Piano wants, the Piano gets."
>     Obviously, the quality of your question shows that you are no "newbie".
> Hope to see your name in print more often.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Meulendijks" <piano@planet.nl>
> To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:54 PM
> Subject: Re: newbie questions: stretching
>
> > When I get the impression I get to low with my highest treble side, I tune
> > beatless over three or even four!! octaves. I check if it is beatless in
> the
> > upper octave,
> > and it mostly is. So what is all this talk about stretching. I blame the
> > fysicist who published the results of his research saying that the
> frequency
> > of a upper partial is more than twice, three times etc. You cannot hear
> > that. Because it is all in the system incorporated. You don't need to
> > stretch to make it fit. When it fits it is stretched. You cannot hear it.
> So
> > actually I blame all the followers of fashion.
> > On the other hand: you can make a deliberate choice to do so because then
> > you have something to talk about. Some musicians want you to do it, but I
> > never came across one who said that my treble side was to low. So I never
> > needed to do so. And again in my opinion I don't strech the treble side.
> > In the bass it is of some importance to my opinion. Because I experience
> > mean sounding intervals as a result of clean octaves. I.e. the quint
> (fifth)
> > and the 5+8. When I stretch to much in the bass I get dirty 10th's. So how
> > can I match this with your question?? I prefer in the contrabas very
> > beatless octaves, because this is often the way they are played. And above
> > all I don't want for example F'-a to be more fast than F-a. It spoiles the
> > feeling of the root of a chord. But attention: my last check is A''-a,
> > Bb''-Bb etc. And Most of the time I don't hear beats. So I only have
> focused
> > on stretching, but not really doing it (I mean upon above the natural
> > stretch that you can't hear.) What puzzles me is that I have the
> impression
> > that the octave plus quint gets oversized in the lower bass, without beats
> > in the octaves.
> >
> > John Meulendijks
> > Tilburg, the Netherlands.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles Neuman <cneuman@phy.duke.edu>
> > To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:03 PM
> > Subject: newbie questions: stretching
> >
> >
> > > Is stretching the high treble an art or science? That is, do you balance
> > > the single and double octaves by whether or not it "sounds good", or do
> > > you go by a specified amount of stretch in cents? I've heard both
> > > opinions.
> > >
> > > If it's more of an art, I would imagine there are those who favor the
> > > single octaves and those that favor the double octaves. Is this the
> case?
> > > Also, do performers ever specify the amount of stretch they like?
> > >
> > > As for the bass, I'm finding that if I tune the bass notes at other than
> > > beatless octaves, it sounds muddy and out of tune. But then I get those
> > > horrible sounding 10ths, which I know I should expect. Any advice on
> > > balancing these two problems?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Charles Neuman
> > > Plainview, NY
> > >
> > >
> >
> >