This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Hi Bill and everybody I've missed some test intervals on the EBVT so from Robert Scotts EBVT = calculation I got those beats (hope I got it right) D3-B3=3D6,1 E3-G#3=3D8,1 F3-A3=3D5,4bps F3-C4=3D0bps F3-A#3=3D0bps =20 F3-D4=3D7,3bps F#3-C#3=3D0bps =20 F#3-B3=3D1,6bps F#3-A#3=3D8,9bps F#3-D#4=3D10,2bps G3-D4=3D1,5bps G3-C4=3D1,5bps G3-B3=3D5,7bps G3-E4=3D6,1bps G#3-D#4=3D0,9 G#3-C#4=3D0bps =20 G#3-C4=3D9,9bps G#3-F4=3D9,7bps A3-E4=3D1,1bps A3-D4=3D1,9bps A3-C#4=3D9,4bps A3-F#4=3D9.2bps A#3-F4=3D0bps =20 A#3-D#4=3D1,3bps A#3-D4=3D9,4bps A#3-G4=3D12,2bps B3-F#4=3D1,6bps B3-E4=3D0,3bps B3-D#4=3D10,9bps B3-G#4=3D12,6bps C4-G4=3D1,5bps C4-F4=3D0bps =20 C4-E4=3D5,7bps C4-A4=3D7,8bps C#4-G#4=3D0bps =20 C#4-F#4=3D0bps =20 C#4-F4=3D12,6bps C#4-A#4=3D13,2bps D4-A4=3D1,9bps D4-G4=3D2,8bps D4-F#4=3D9bps D#4-G#4=3D1,7bps D#4-G4=3D14,2bps E4-A4=3D2,1bps E4-G#4=3D16,3bps F4-A4=3D10,8bps Is this what you mean? Do you want to change anything? A question I can't understand why you after tuning A4 and A3 want to tune E4-C4-G3-B3-D4-F4-F3 Why not take the short cut F3-C4-E4 to see how the thirds of F3-A3 and C4-E4 beat the same, = retune(?) and then take the rest of the whites Please tell me:-) Ola Andersson Bergen Norway ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Billbrpt@AOL.COM=20 To: pianotech@ptg.org=20 Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 7:31 PM Subject: Re: alternative temperaments In a message dated 4/7/01 11:28:35 AM Central Daylight Time,=20 tunenbww@clear.lakes.com (Paul) writes:=20 I'm an aural tuner, so setting this temperament was a bit of a = struggle. It=20 did work out. All of the checks proofed correct. I had several = people try=20 the piano. Their reactions is another story.=20 I'm glad that you are an aural tuner because I have the ideal = temperament for=20 you to try. It will be in the same general area as Jim Coleman's #11, = yet=20 different enough to be quite significantly different in the overall = effects=20 it produces when actual music is played. The difference is in the = effects=20 that Equal Beating (EB) produces.=20 While not attempting to say anything negative about Jim Coleman's = idea, it=20 was formed simply by meting out certain proportions for various = intervals,=20 giving up purity at the top of the Cycle of 5ths in order to avoid = harshness=20 at the bottom. Mine does essentially the same thing but because of = the EB=20 effect, you can play early music with it and have it mimic the sound = of a=20 much earlier temperament which would have uncalled for harshness in = the=20 remote keys when trying to play music from the 19th or 20th Centuries. = What happens is a canceling out effect in the Rapidly Beating = Intervals=20 (RBI), e.g., 3rds, 6ths, 10ths & 17ths that make them sound much purer = than=20 they really are. This is not an imaginary effect. It is the same = effect=20 found in such acoustical tricks as Noise Cancellation Systems and Beat = Eliminators. The gist of it is that when there are two sets of beats=20 occurring at the same time, they phase each other out so that they are = not=20 perceived by the ear.=20 This gives you an advantage in that you can have a true, Cycle of 5ths = based=20 temperament that can and does work well with virtually any kind of = music, the=20 way only ET is believed to be able to do. There are many myths about = ET and=20 one of them is that it is "Universally" practiced. In fact, most = aural=20 tuners cannot really produce a true ET. There is always some error = and that=20 error does produce an effect or "color", as it is called in the music. = The Equal Beating Victorian Temperament (EBVT) that I designed stays = well=20 within the bounds of deviation (or "error") in ET that most aural = tuners=20 produce. Therefore, it produces no sound so extreme (either too pure = or too=20 harsh) that the *contemporary* ear will reject it. I designed and=20 implemented this temperament in 1992 and have used it ever since as my = own=20 personal replacement for ET. I have, in fact, tuned no pianos in ET = since=20 1989. I tune all kinds of pianos, in homes, schools, churches, = concert=20 halls, restaurants, hotels, etc. I have a very loyal and devoted = following=20 that really likes the way I make my pianos sound.=20 Ed Foote's latest essay found in the liner notes of his new CD is = quite=20 impressive. But I find a couple of areas of temperament research = lacking in=20 his study that I usually find, even among the most knowledgeable = alternative=20 temperament practitioners. There seems to be only one "Meantone", the = most=20 extreme form, the one that makes the modern piano sound like an = antique one=20 with virtually none of the resonance we expect to hear. There are = whole=20 classes of temperaments that remain ignored and unexplored, the = Modified=20 Meantones (not the same kind of temperament as a "Meantone") and the = Quasi=20 Equal Temperaments. The EBVT is, in fact a Modified Meantone = Temperament=20 although it also just barely satisfies the Rules for Well-Tempered = Tuning as=20 written by Andreas Werkmeister in the 17th Century.=20 Ed mentioned in a recent post that a Gershwin piece in Db would have = sounded=20 "better" in ET. I've seen him say the same about Chopin and Debussy. = I=20 respectfully disagree. There is a reason that these composers chose a = remote=20 key, the challenge is to find the exact combinations that make it = sound=20 vibrant and singing but not harsh. ET is merely the default choice = for those=20 who do not have the answer. It neutralizes the piano to the point = where it=20 would make no difference at all which key is chosen to play in. I = hardly=20 think anyone would choose ET if they really knew how much better music = could=20 sound with a more advanced approach to tuning.=20 Below are the basic instructions for the EBVT. It cannot be tuned the = way=20 most people are trying to attempt alternative temperaments, by = imposing a set=20 of "Correction Figures" to a smooth curve calculation for ET using an=20 Electronic Tuning Device (ETD). If you tune the octaves the way I = have=20 indicated in a very brief description, they will naturally be of = different=20 sizes as you ascend and descend the scale. No smooth curve = calculation can=20 produce this. They are known as "Tempered Octaves".=20 If you or anyone is interested in reading a background article I have = written=20 to support my ideas called "Key Color", please request it privately. = It is=20 too long to post on Pianotech. Also, please inquire if you need = further=20 explanation of how to tune the octaves. It is really quite easy and = simple=20 but not the way you have probably been taught.=20 Good luck with this and let me and/or the List know of your own = reaction and=20 those of your customers.=20 Regards,=20 Bill Bremmer RPT=20 Madison, Wisconsin=20 EBVT Aural Tuning Instructions: Introduction=20 Below are the line by line instructions for tuning the EBVT. You will = begin=20 by estimating just 2 intervals, a 5th which you will temper just = slightly=20 more than you would for ET and a 3rd which you will temper about half = as much=20 as you would for ET. Thereafter, all you will need to do is either = tune an=20 interval perfectly pure or make it beat exactly the same as another. = In=20 short, the temperament sequence itself provides you with the exact=20 information you need.=20 The instructions include the aural way of proving your pure 4ths and = 5ths. =20 When doing an initial first rough pass, it is not necessary to prove = these=20 intervals so exactly. Also, the instructions have several places = where they=20 tell you to "temporarily tune...etc". These are for people who are = just=20 beginning to learn the temperament sequence.=20 With experience and during the fine tuning of the temperament, you may = skip=20 the "temporary" part the same way you learn to skip elementary steps = in=20 Algebra. You simply learn how to make 2 intervals beat exactly the = same as=20 each other by placing the note to be tuned at point where it creates 2 = equally beating intervals. This is also called "Meantone tuning".=20 The following is the way the 3rds played chromatically will sound from = F3-F4.=20 Just imagine all values inverted and you have the most commonly made = error=20 in tuning today which is known as "Reverse Well".=20 F3-A3: slow=20 F#3-A#3: fast=20 G3-B3: slow=20 Ab3-C4: quite fast=20 A3-C#4: moderate, about the same as ET=20 Bb-D4: moderate=20 B3-D#4: very fast=20 C4-E4: slow, half the speed of ET=20 C#4-F4: very fast=20 Equal Beating Victorian Temperament=20 (Equal Beating Victorianized Modified Meantone Temperament)=20 Instructions for Aural Tuning=20 (With Tempered Octaves)=20 1. Tune A4 to A-440 pitch source.=20 2. Tune A3 to A4, stretching the octave to a a 6:3 type.=20 3. Temper E4 from A3, a narrow 5th, a little more than an Equal=20 Temperament (ET) 5th but still slightly less than 1 beat per = second.=20 This is an estimate and may be checked or adjusted later, if=20 necessary.=20 4. Listen to the 4th, E4-A4. It should beat faster than the 5th, = A3-E4=20 but should not be faster than 2 beats per second.=20 5. Temper C4 from E4, a wide Major 3rd to beat approximately 6 beats = per=20 second. (Half the speed of the same interval in ET.)=20 6. Temper G3 from E4, a wide Major 6th so that it beats exactly the = same=20 as the C4-E4 3rd. (Approximately 6 beats per second).=20 7. Temper B3 from G3, a wide Major 3rd so that it beats exactly the = same=20 as both the C4-E4 3rd and the G3-E4 6th. (Approximately 6 beats per = second).=20 8. Temporarily tune D4 a pure 4th from A4 then notice the strong beat = in the 5th G3-D4 and sharpen D4 until the beat is exactly the same=20 in both the G3-D4 5th and the A3-D4 4th. (Faster than the same=20 interval in ET.)=20 9. Tune F3 a pure 5th from C4. To check this interval, use G#2 as = the=20 test note and prove that the Ab2-F3 6th beats exactly the same as=20 the Ab2-C4 10th.=20 10. Tune F4 a pure 4th from C4. To check this interval, use G#3 as = the=20 test note and prove that the 3rd Ab3-C4 beats exactly the same as = the=20 Ab3-F4 6th.=20 11. Verify the F3-F4 octave. Using the test for a pure 5th which = chooses=20 the lowest coincident partial of F3 & C4 and the test for the pure = 4th=20 C4-F4 will yield a properly stretched octave, usually a compromise=20 between a 4:2 & 6:3 type.=20 12. Check the speed of the 3rd, F3-A3. It should beat exactly the = same=20 or very similarly to the 3rds G3-B3 and C4-E4. If it is too slow,=20 adjust the note, E4 slightly flatter and begin the sequence again.=20 If too fast, adjust E4 slightly sharper and restart the sequence.=20 13. Tune Bb3 a pure 5th from F4. Use the test note C#3 to prove that = the=20 Db3-Bb3 6th beats exactly the same as the Db3-F4 10th.=20 14. Listen to the resultant 3rd, Bb3-D4. Temper C#4 so that the = A3-C#4=20 3rd beats exactly the same as the Bb3-D4 3rd.=20 15. Tune F#3 a pure 5th from C#4. Use the test note A2 to prove that = the=20 A2-F#3 6th beats exactly the same as the A2-C#4 10th.=20 16. Tune G#3 a pure 4th from C#4. Use the test note E3 to prove that = the=20 E3-G#3 3rd beats exactly the same as the E3-C#4 6th. The Ab3-C4 = 3rd=20 will beat exactly the same as the F#3-A#3 3rd.=20 17. Temporarily tune D#4 a pure 5th from G#3 then notice the slight = beat=20 between D#4 & A#3 and flatten D#4 until the G#3-D#4 5th beats = exactly=20 the same as the A#3-D#4 4th. It will be a very slight beat, less = than=20 the same interval in ET. The B3-D#4 3rd will beat very rapidly, at=20 least as fast as the F#3-A#3 & Ab3-C4 3rds below and similar to but = perhaps not quite as fast as the C#4-F4 3rd above.=20 18. When expanding the octaves do so in a manner which will cause the=20 2nd inversion major triads of C, G, D, A, E, & B to have the 3rd & = 6th=20 beat exactly the same. The octave should be stretched enough so = that=20 there is a very slight beat in the single octave (approximately 1/2 = beat per second) and that the tempered 5th will beat slower than = the=20 4th. When both the 4th and the 5th were pure in the temperament, = the=20 octave will naturally be stretched a little less than an octave=20 whose 4th and 5th are tempered.=20 19. When expanding the outer octaves, try to reconcile the double = octave=20 and the octave and a 5th (12th) so that the double octave and the = 12th=20 beat exactly the same. (A very slight beat, almost inaudible). This = will naturally result in octaves which vary slightly in size up and = down the keyboard. These will quite effectively be "tempered=20 octaves".=20 Bill Bremmer RPT=20 Madison, Wisconsin=20 April, 2000=20 ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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