Many of this country's best technicians are not members of the PTG. Wonder why? > From: caut-request at ptg.org > Subject: CAUT Digest, Vol 21, Issue 82 > To: caut at ptg.org > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:20:38 -0600 > > Send CAUT mailing list submissions to > caut at ptg.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > caut-request at ptg.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > caut-owner at ptg.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of CAUT digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re Retesting(OT) (Susan Kline) > 2. Re: Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up) - bass bridge > downbearing (bdshull) > 3. Re: Re Retesting(OT) (Ed Sutton) > 4. Retesting (Porritt, David) (Israel Stein) > 5. collodion properties (was: Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing > (Up) ) (Israel Stein) > 6. Retesting (Diane) (Israel Stein) > 7. Re: Re Retesting(OT) (tnrwim at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:40:30 -0700 > From: Susan Kline <skline at peak.org> > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100728163925.039924b8 at peak.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > >I remember the "passport to Excellence" and while it was a good > >idea, it had no authority to it. > > > And just as well that it didn't. Techs are independent cusses, who > don't tolerate being forced to do something because some people in an > organization have decided to order them around. > > Before requiring ongoing education and retesting of the whole > RPT-holding Guild roster, one must consider how firmly attached they > are to the organization. Their dislike of being coerced (and of > tolerating the implied condescension), and the stresses on their > schedule and finances (which are often stretched to the breaking > point already) could easily find many of them dumping the > organization before submitting to ongoing new requirements which take > time and money. > > Remember that a large percentage of technicians are near retirement > age. Their businesses are mature, and to the extent that they can be > excellent at their work, many of them already are. The large number > of people, many elderly, who attend meetings and conventions, and who > like hands-on classes, is only possible, IMO, because they are > voluntary, and because people enjoy seeing their friends and > colleagues now and then. There is joy in lifelong learning, but that > is because of the free exploration involved. One is following a path > of one's own devising, seeing where it leads. Re-education and > retesting sounds like a one-size-fits-all situation, and among > veteran piano tuners, one size probably fits almost no one. > > Stepping away a few yards, and attempting to look at the problem > objectively, some people are good at doing things on their own, and > some are good at following directions and taking tests. The > psychology of the credential assumes that these two groups hold > exactly the same people, but is this really true? How much of the time? > > (Conrad's latest flamesuit carefully buttoned ...) > > Susan Kline > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:53:53 -0700 > From: bdshull <bdshull at aol.com> > To: <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up) - bass bridge > downbearing > Message-ID: <201007290053.o6T0rxtY030824 at imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > o > > Sent from my HTC Tilt? 2, a Windows? phone from AT&T > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 4:37 PM > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Hamburg Steinway Hammer Voicing (Up) - bass bridge downbearing > > > > [The entire original message is not included] > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100728/b9a2ad69/attachment-0001.htm> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:11:53 -0400 > From: "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com> > To: <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > Message-ID: <F9E08C4DA1D54146A1A8CA7465DAC02B at EdPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Thus we see why, 30 years ago, old RPTs were grandfathered in, no test > required. > > If any change happens, it will, hopefully, be done in some way as to not > penalize old members who don't want to participate. > > It might also be done in such a way that it is too interesting to ignore. > Why do some members with 30, 40, 50 years experience continue to attend > classes, voluntarily? > > Personally, I favor the "create your own curriculum" approach. It's what the > most motivated people are doing already. > > Ed S. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Kline" <skline at peak.org> > To: <caut at ptg.org> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:40 PM > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > > > > > >>I remember the "passport to Excellence" and while it was a good idea, it > >>had no authority to it. > > > > > > And just as well that it didn't. Techs are independent cusses, who don't > > tolerate being forced to do something because some people in an > > organization have decided to order them around. > > > > Before requiring ongoing education and retesting of the whole RPT-holding > > Guild roster, one must consider how firmly attached they are to the > > organization. Their dislike of being coerced (and of tolerating the > > implied condescension), and the stresses on their schedule and finances > > (which are often stretched to the breaking point already) could easily > > find many of them dumping the organization before submitting to ongoing > > new requirements which take time and money. > > > > Remember that a large percentage of technicians are near retirement age. > > Their businesses are mature, and to the extent that they can be excellent > > at their work, many of them already are. The large number of people, many > > elderly, who attend meetings and conventions, and who like hands-on > > classes, is only possible, IMO, because they are voluntary, and because > > people enjoy seeing their friends and colleagues now and then. There is > > joy in lifelong learning, but that is because of the free exploration > > involved. One is following a path of one's own devising, seeing where it > > leads. Re-education and retesting sounds like a one-size-fits-all > > situation, and among veteran piano tuners, one size probably fits almost > > no one. > > > > Stepping away a few yards, and attempting to look at the problem > > objectively, some people are good at doing things on their own, and some > > are good at following directions and taking tests. The psychology of the > > credential assumes that these two groups hold exactly the same people, but > > is this really true? How much of the time? > > > > (Conrad's latest flamesuit carefully buttoned ...) > > > > Susan Kline > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:25:52 -0700 > From: Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: [CAUT] Retesting (Porritt, David) > Message-ID: <4C50E6B0.1010706 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Wed, 28 Jul 2010 08:25:05 -0500 From: "Porritt, David" > <dporritt at mail.smu.edu> wrote: > > Israel: > > > > If continuing education were required for maintaining RPT status, taking a class and answering some questions would no longer be a gold star but a professional enhancement. The problem - as I saw it - with the Passport program was that not doing it had no consequences. So, when I took a class and the instructor was too busy chatting with a friend to be able to sign my form I just left. If I had needed that signature to maintain my credentials, I'd have waited. > > > > dp > > > > David M. Porritt, RPT > > dporritt at smu.edu > > > David, > > I suggest that you re-read the entire discussion between Ed and myself. > If taking a class from the PTG and answering exam questions were a > requirement for maintaining RPT status, there is a whole passel of > anti-trust requirements that would make this a very complicated matter - > which is why Ed has explicitly stated that his idea is not about > continuing education as a certification requirement. But if it were, now > that I think about some of the issue that we dealt with in connection > with the old Associates Seminar back when Kent Swafford was PTG > President, I am beginning to think that the entire concept of the PTG > both issuing certifications and requiring that members wishing to earn > or maintain certification take classes offered by the PTG is very > problematic from the legal angle. Don't want to go into details here, > but legally speaking, I don't think that a certifying body can legally > require that a candidate for certification take classes offered by it. > It is very possible that the same might apply to maintaining a > certification. Think about it - does the Bar Association offer law > classes? Does the various medical and nursing boards do the same? As a > Trade Association, there are some things we cannot do, and others that > must follow very strict guidelines. This might be one of them... > > Israel Stein > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:55:31 -0700 > From: Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: [CAUT] collodion properties (was: Hamburg Steinway Hammer > Voicing (Up) ) > Message-ID: <4C50EDA3.70302 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > > Wed, 28 Jul 2010 Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu> wrote: > > > > > > I'm trying to get at the basic principles here, along the same lines > > as hard and flexible collodion. My guess is that flexible collodion > > would behave differently than sanding sealer, but it is a guess > > without any practical experience to back it up. > > > Then "Ed Sutton" <ed440 at mindspring.com> wrote: > > > > Do we know that traditional use calls for flexible or simple collodion? > > > > When we add juices to hammers, are we trying to bind or cement the wool fibers together, or are we trying to size and stiffen the individual fibers? I tend to think we are sizing and stiffening the fibers, using very thin solutions which partially penetrate and coat the fibers. Is this better done by something stiff or flexible, or does it matter? > > > > > > And then Fred Sturm <fssturm at unm.edu> wrote: > > While I have heard people talk about using collodion, usually thinned > > with ether, I am not at all clear whether they meant stiff or > > flexible. I think it likely they meant stiff, in which case it is > > simply the same thing (essentially) as lacquer with acetone (to speed > > drying, like ether would do). > > > Ed, Fred, > > I thoroughly researched this in the PTG e-mail list archives and have > gotten some private correspondence from someone with extensive > experience using collodion , and both sources specify collodion U.S.P - > which is flexible - or "flexible collodion". My private source concurs > that rigid collodion is not a good choice - it would essentially do the > same thing as lacquer. > > My theory is that the fundamental difference between the NY Steinway > hammer (which is not made to be springy) and the European style > "springy" hammer is what makes lacquer - or any other stiffener - > appropriate for voicing them, but not appropriate for the European style > hammers. You don't want to make the springy European style hammer fibers > completely stiff, because this spring-like quality makes a major > contribution to the tone. Filling them with a rigid hardener - like > lacquer or rigid collodion - makes them less springy. I think, rather, > that the flexible collodion binds the fibers together while maintaining > this flexibility. Just my theory to explain the empirical observations > of my sources. > > Israel Stein > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:28:14 -0700 > From: Israel Stein <custos3 at comcast.net> > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: [CAUT] Retesting (Diane) > Message-ID: <4C50F54E.3070309 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:32:56 -0700 From: Diane Hofstetter > <dianepianotuner at msn.com> wrote; > > > > I think Ed said it all: > > > > "My interest at this time is that we generate as many creative visions as possible." > > > > > > His earlier email, where he suggested ways of giving the tests, that we can just barely imagine, was exciting for its possibilities-- and seemingly overwhelming for those who are trapped in the nitty-gritty of administering the already complex exam process. > > > > CEU's don't need to be so complex. They are "continuing education" not the same as the education it took to achieve RPT status. My continuing education units are further education in the field, my education and skills to earn my license are practiced daily and are not retested, unless I go for a license in another state. > > > > The suggestion of an exam written to test one's comprehension of the Five Lectures is a perfect example of a valid CEU opportunity. > > > > There are test centers all over the US. They are usually in community colleges or libraries. The organization requiring testing contracts with the test centers for its members to go there and take a supervised test. It cost me $15 to take one of my distance learning exams. I took it online at the college test center two miles from my home. Other weekly tests I was able to take online from home. > > > > A PTG meeting, or a couple of hours before the meeting, could be an opportunity to have supervised tests. > Diane, > > You have touched on an idea that I was trying to find a way of > introducing. Certifying agencies typically do not engage in educational > activities and do not generate the material to be studied. Its the PTG's > bane that it tries to do everything using its own volunteer resources - > rather than using what is already out there, or the skills of those who > do this sort of thing professionally. Most of what you say above is > doable - if the PTG, instead of trying to be the teacher/tester/resource > creator and motivator all rolled into one starts researching and using > outside resources. Just as an example, we have been talking about an > on-line Written Exam for years - but we have gotten nowhere, because all > initiatives were based on in-house volunteer efforts. I have been for > years trying to convince the powers-that-be to simply research what is > available out there on the commercial testing software market, and then > contract with a testing outfit - or buy an on-line testing software > package. They still think that they can just write a bunch of questions > and then get someone in-house (or someone's 16-year-old kid) to write > the software. > > As I wrote to Ed much earlier in this discussion - all kinds of things > are possible if the PTG would be willing to come up with the money it > would take to pay the people who do this for a living (and find the > financing source) - and have the PTG volunteers concentrate on the piano > end of the matters. Because if we depend on our volunteers to create all > this in their copious spare time, we will still be debugging the systems > by the time our children retire. What we need to do is research the > possibilities of using outside resources for most of this - both for > efficiency and effectiveness sake, and to avoid all the > restraint-of-trade issues that come with us wearing multiple hats. And > then start working out the details. > > Israel Stein > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:20:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: tnrwim at aol.com > To: ed440 at mindspring.com, caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > Message-ID: <8CCFCEC81153902-1190-4DCC at webmail-d040.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > It might also be done in such a way that it is too interesting to ignore. > hy do some members with 30, 40, 50 years experience continue to attend > lasses, voluntarily? > Personally, I favor the "create your own curriculum" approach. It's what the > ost motivated people are doing already. > Ed S. > > Then why have any kind of program? Unless there are consequences of not attending classes, or taking recert exams, if the only purpose of taking exams or attending classes are voluntary, why have any kind of curriculum or path of study? All it would do is create paper work for an overloaded staff, or put additional burdens on volunteers. > > Wim > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ed Sutton <ed440 at mindspring.com> > To: caut <caut at ptg.org> > Sent: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 3:12 pm > Subject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > > > Thus we see why, 30 years ago, old RPTs were grandfathered in, no test > equired. > If any change happens, it will, hopefully, be done in some way as to not > enalize old members who don't want to participate. > It might also be done in such a way that it is too interesting to ignore. > hy do some members with 30, 40, 50 years experience continue to attend > lasses, voluntarily? > Personally, I favor the "create your own curriculum" approach. It's what the > ost motivated people are doing already. > Ed S. > > ---- Original Message ----- > rom: "Susan Kline" <skline at peak.org> > o: <caut at ptg.org> > ent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:40 PM > ubject: Re: [CAUT] Re Retesting(OT) > > > >I remember the "passport to Excellence" and while it was a good idea, it > >had no authority to it. > > > And just as well that it didn't. Techs are independent cusses, who don't > tolerate being forced to do something because some people in an > organization have decided to order them around. > > Before requiring ongoing education and retesting of the whole RPT-holding > Guild roster, one must consider how firmly attached they are to the > organization. Their dislike of being coerced (and of tolerating the > implied condescension), and the stresses on their schedule and finances > (which are often stretched to the breaking point already) could easily > find many of them dumping the organization before submitting to ongoing > new requirements which take time and money. > > Remember that a large percentage of technicians are near retirement age. > Their businesses are mature, and to the extent that they can be excellent > at their work, many of them already are. The large number of people, many > elderly, who attend meetings and conventions, and who like hands-on > classes, is only possible, IMO, because they are voluntary, and because > people enjoy seeing their friends and colleagues now and then. There is > joy in lifelong learning, but that is because of the free exploration > involved. One is following a path of one's own devising, seeing where it > leads. Re-education and retesting sounds like a one-size-fits-all > situation, and among veteran piano tuners, one size probably fits almost > no one. > > Stepping away a few yards, and attempting to look at the problem > objectively, some people are good at doing things on their own, and some > are good at following directions and taking tests. The psychology of the > credential assumes that these two groups hold exactly the same people, but > is this really true? How much of the time? > > (Conrad's latest flamesuit carefully buttoned ...) > > Susan Kline > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100729/18a30612/attachment.htm> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > CAUT mailing list > CAUT at ptg.org > http://ptg.org/mailman/listinfo/caut > > > End of CAUT Digest, Vol 21, Issue 82 > ************************************ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100729/8efe8df1/attachment-0001.htm>
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