David, The soundboard must have gotten remarkably hot during this event, even if it must have been of short duration since no actual burning or charring per se occurred per. But what do you make of those very interesting figures Greg Graham offered regarding heat treatments etc. - the high temps and relatively long periods of time? I suppose it's possible a wood scientist could analyze a sample of soundboard spruce on a microscopic level and determine whether changes to elasticity etc. have occurred or not. But even though Bill may well be right (and my unscientific instincts lean me toward thinking the board might be fine), I think that with insurance approval for a complete board replacement it makes sense (as you say) to play it safe and go that route. We're training off tomorrow morning on a weeklong holiday to Cornwall, as a substitute for our canceled air flight to Italy for holiday (canceled due to the "The Ash Crisis" as I notice are calling it on ITV). So I'll be off the e-mail radar for a week - but will be very interested to read any further posts on the subject that may come up. Thanks again to all for the interesting opinions and helpful advice. Allen Wright On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:45 PM, David Love wrote: > Well actually this fire restoration person was an RPT who happens > to specialize in this area including full restorations. I think > the source is fairly reliable recommended to me by several > different people on this list. He has taught several classes at > the national convention on the subject. So while I agree that > your standard fire cleanup guy probably doesn’t know pianos I don’t > think this was the case here. As I mentioned, I am no expert in > this area but the information passed on to me was that once the > flames come in contact with the case and especially the soundboard > that attempting a repair by simple scraping and cleaning probably > isn’t sufficient. I would certainly guess that in order for the > soundboard varnish on top of the board to bubble from heat > generated from underneath that the integrity of the board would be > in question. If it were me, I would be trying to avoid the > scenario of making an estimate for the simpler clean and repair, > having an insurance company make a settlement only to find that the > board fell out of the piano, the ribs fell off and it started > crumbling later. Not a good situation. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf > Of wbis290 > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 2:24 PM > To: caut at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [CAUT] soundboard "stress test" > > Hi David, > > I would not take what fire restoration people say as the final word > on many things. I have run into them in my work on some pianos that > they said were way beyond repairing and they were pretty far off > the mark. I have two pianos that are still going strong over thirty > years after they were damaged by fire. One of them had the corner > of the piano burning when the fire department arrived. You would > never guess that anything happened to these pianos. I have found, > also, in my work in the fire department that there are times when > the restoration "experts" had written furniture and whole housed > off that are still being used. I was asked to speak to a group of > insurance people once about fire and water damage to pianos. I had > found out by many of these people that it is easier to just sign > things off than to repair different articles. I am no expert as far > as fire restoration is concerned but I have found by experience in > both the piano and fire se rvice that many of these people take for > granted whatever is told to them when they take their training. I > have run into some very knowledgeable people in the fire > restoration business and some who have no clue as to the real > world. Best to you. > > God bless > > Bill Balmer, RPT > Ohio Northern University and the University of Findlay > > > > > > In a message dated 04/20/10 10:02:22 US Eastern Standard Time, > davidlovepianos at comcast.net writes: > The issue here is not so much the finish but what happened to the > panel and > the glue joints when the fire toasted the board down to some very > low EMC > and heated the rib/panel glue joints. While I am not an expert in > this > area, my recent conversations with fire restoration individuals > suggest that > once the flames actually touch the surface (especially the soundboard > directly) the potential for failure increases exponentially and the > piano is > generally written off as a total loss unless complete > remanufacturing is > planned and justified by the piano's inherent value. While there > may be > some instances of "survival" the acoustical properties and > longevity of the > glue joints (this can be in the rim and support beams as well as > the panel) > come into question. > > David Love > www.davidlovepianos.com > > > > In a message dated 04/17/10 14:21:15 US Eastern Standard Time, > akwright at btopenwor ld.com writes: > Our restoration shop just received a piano that's been subjected to a > pretty bizarre accident (or perhaps vandalism - we don't know) at a > school. We believe a fire burned in a rubbish bin directly underneath > this Model A (number 400028). Below you can see the results; the > soundboard got so hot that the varnish bubbled on the top side, yet > the underside suffered no actual charring or burning (note in the > second photo how the soot has been wiped away by my thumb in one > spot). The last two photos reveal that enough soot was pouring up > through the two holes in the underside (at the sustain pedal and the > plate bolt) so as to leave a residue. > > It seems to me this would be a tricky thing to pull off even if one > were deliberately trying to do it; specifically I mean getting the > board heated just enough to bubble the varnish, but not so ho t it > that things caught fire and burned. A pretty flukey event! I suppose > there must have been just enough stuff in the bin to burn for just > long enough (and hot enough) to cause only this amount of damage. > > The soundboard seems fine, still has plenty of power etc. We'll be > replacing it, since the instrument is covered by insurance and it > seems the prudent thing to do. But I wonder if anyone with more > knowledge than I about internal wood structure will have an opinion > on whether any lasting damage to the board will in fact have > occurred, and if so how it might affect the tone or longevity? > > Sincerely, > > Allen Wright > London, UK > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/caut.php/attachments/20100420/33259a16/attachment-0001.htm>
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