Hello Dave, and a question for Israel,
Dave, in the following observation, that:
"For me needling in the crown of a lacquered hammer does get rid of
the harsh attack very quickly but over time the continued crown needling
creates a consistency in the crown that won't stand up to much playing
before coming back and ultimately shortens the life of the hammer."
you to an extent struck upon exactly why I introduced the whole idea of the old school/ new school approach to voicing by Steinway. I have heard some extremely unflattering things about Franz Mohr and the people in his shadow then from the new school Steinway people and it is not surprising the methods the factory now teaches contrasts with those of his era, however responsible he is for them.
When I received voicing instruction from Ken Sloane in the 80's that Steinway taught him over 25-30 years ago, I learned something entirely different from what the people coming out of the present day Steinway academy teach.
I do think Sloane ultimately benefited from using Steinway hammers without being pre-lacquered, or pre-lacquered to a lesser degree than they are today, though people can have more confidence that hammers need lacquer when the factory sends the piano with lacquered hammers, both musicians and piano technicians. He has also worked with me on the newer pre-lacquered hammers with the same success, however. It helps to have a feel of the hammer density without the confusion lacquer creates by making it impossible to test the hammer first in the piano before lacquering the hammer. That way making a determination about how much lacquer to use by how much sound the hammer produces without it is - not only as it relates to the hammer density apart from lacquering, but the character of the whole piano itself, not to mention the space the piano will live in, the preferences of the owner or the one using it, and the purpose for use - easier with experience this way, though a lack of confidence in you makes modifying the hammer more risky. In some cases with some people, I will leave it the way it is no matter what until accosted to change it, and for that reason, am glad about pre-lacquering.
If you get a feel for it, it is a relatively simple part of the process in hammer installation, and one need not consider the harder-pressed hammer easier to work with when you approach voicing from the old school approach. Even if there is a modest amount of lacquer, one can ascertain if you only need one, possibly two, and rarely, three passes with the lacquer, at least the stuff I use, a determination not necessarily made immediately, and by determining the correct amount, you hardly need to needle at all outside of the shift pedal. The new school simply has absolutely no conception of this whatsoever, though perhaps I am getting the wrong impression. I still have yet to attend myself. My impression is that for the new it's just, you can't ruin a Steinway Hammer, needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice needle juice, mind you, all crown needling, and then people complain about Steinway hammers. Another way to reduce crown needling is off the top juicing, depending on the solvency of the juice, penetration into hammer, etc.
I am so glad I go to the factory armed with an understanding not cultivated entirely by the new school approach, however misinformed a may be about it.
Israel, were those hammers pre-hung? Steinway sells pre-hung hammers now, and I do not know how they go about it. I am wondering how much needling those hammers were subjected to before you even got them.
- Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:52 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up
If you are changing hammers every 3-5 years that helps. I'm glad you're
getting the results that you want. My own experience with solutions of that
strength haven't been so good but then I'm not usually targeting a "top
high" strikeweight curve, even on those pianos, and I'm generally looking
for longer life than that. The hard pressed hammers (and I'm not sure which
one we're talking about) certainly require a different voicing approach but
I've found them very manageable on these types of pianos and longer lasting
than the 3-5 years if voiced properly (depends on the hammer selection
though). For me needling in the crown of a lacquered hammer does get rid of
the harsh attack very quickly but over time the continued crown needling
creates a consistency in the crown that won't stand up to much playing
before coming back and ultimately shortens the life of the hammer.
I go back and forth in my attitude about lacquering and one problem I see in
getting the prelacquered hammers has to do with selection of solution
strength. Generally the Steinway hammer needs different applications in
different parts of the scale. The tenor usually comes up fairly easily and
quickly, the bass needs a bit more and more toward the crown and the treble
needs either several applications or a stronger application. It's the
treble area that is most of the problem and I go back and forth between
using several applications of a thinner solution or fewer (or a single)
application of a stronger solution. I am of the mind that you are often
better off if you can choose the strength you need to get where you want in
one application because the hammer is less receptive to absorbing the
lacquer deeper in the hammer the more applications you use. Choosing the
right strength, however, can be tricky and using something which is too
strong can have negative effects, as I've described.
But everyone has their own methods and goals and I'm glad that you've found
a solution that works for you (pun intended).
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:21 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up
The thing is David, they don't get like rocks. I've been working with
Steinway hammers on performance pianos this way for many years. I'll repeat
though that it is critical to match the amount and dilution of the lacquer
to the weight of the hammer. I happen to like the results I get with heavy
hammers using this method. My standard strikeweight curve for performance
pianos (Ds) is what David Stanwood has labeled "top high". Our performance
pianos get new hammers every 3-5 years depending on the amount of use they
get. It is easy and fast to manage the voicing using shallow needling on the
crown. I have a tool I made with 7 needles across that only stick out 2mm or
so which I call my tenderizer. It gets rid of a harsh attack very quickly.
The only hammers I've ever locked horns with that were like rocks and kept
getting harder were hard-pressed...
Eric
________________________________________
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love
[davidlovepianos at comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:43 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up
I'm glad that all worked out but needing 2:1 and 1:1 applications I just
think something is wrong there. With that strong an application within a
month or two those hammer will be like rocks.
You are right, a "hard pressed" hammer should not need lacquer, but the
often do in the last 5 or 6 notes.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of
Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up
Hi Israel,
We have 7 Ds here and I would be happy to have any of them on any stage - 2
are new NY instruments so I know they were pre-lacquered. 4 of the others
were re-hammered within the past few years using Stanwood precision Touch
Designs and I really can't remember if they were pre-lacquered hammers...my
guess is that one of them probably is. My experience has been that the
pre-soaked hammers behave in the same way in subsequent soakings that the
older (recently older, I might add) NY hammers (they have increased in
quality quite a bit in the last 5 years or so). The way your set behaved
sounds really strange to me because as David Love said, the first
application soaks right in all the way to the core in just a few seconds. On
some sets I've even wondered if they were really soaked. Maybe you got a bum
set or something. Both of the new Ds delivered last December needed more
lacquer once thay got on our stages as opposed to the selection room and are
now big and bold and ready for prime-time. I used 2:1 Acetone/lacquer from
the top down till blended in at around C5 and 3:1 the rest of the way. The
last D we have is a Hamburg which was delivered in March. I haven't had the
opportunity to do any voicing on it yet since the halls have been very busy
since it came. It is a lovely piano the way it is but the treble is thin
compared to the NY Ds. I would never put lacquer in a hard-pressed hammer
until I've tried all the regular techniques to no avail. I've found it
extremely neccessary to match hammer hardness to weight...All these NY Ds
have very heavy hammers and hence need a lot of juice...even 1:1 in the last
octave. Light hammers get really nasty sounding if they are too hard.
It sounds like you've done the right thing for the set in question and I'm
happy you were able to ressurect them!
Eric
________________________________________
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Israel Stein
[custos3 at comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:14 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up
Hello again,
For all of you who are claiming success with the pre-hardened Steinway
hammers - how many of you have had success with them on a top-quality
concert hall stage instrument? Which is the situation we found ourselves
in her at SF State. I have used those hammers before also, with good -
even excellent - results. In less demanding situations. But when it came
to the very demanding concert hall use - the hammers, as delivered, fell
short. They never delivered the volume that this instrument is capable
of - pianists complained that it took too much work to get the volume
they needed, and nothing we did could improve that. Flushing the
hardener and starting over gave much more satisfactory results - both in
terms of volume and tone color. Which tells me that having full control
of the hardening process may work better than depending on what they do
in the factory. Of course, there is always the possibility that this set
of hammers is an exception - that for some reason it was overhardened at
the factory. I still prefer, in the future, to put the lacquer where I
want it if i need to use Steinway hammers and not depend on the
factory's alleged 30-second soaking. As long as Steinway makes
un-hardened hammers available - which I believe they do.
Israel Stein==
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