If you are changing hammers every 3-5 years that helps. I'm glad you're getting the results that you want. My own experience with solutions of that strength haven't been so good but then I'm not usually targeting a "top high" strikeweight curve, even on those pianos, and I'm generally looking for longer life than that. The hard pressed hammers (and I'm not sure which one we're talking about) certainly require a different voicing approach but I've found them very manageable on these types of pianos and longer lasting than the 3-5 years if voiced properly (depends on the hammer selection though). For me needling in the crown of a lacquered hammer does get rid of the harsh attack very quickly but over time the continued crown needling creates a consistency in the crown that won't stand up to much playing before coming back and ultimately shortens the life of the hammer. I go back and forth in my attitude about lacquering and one problem I see in getting the prelacquered hammers has to do with selection of solution strength. Generally the Steinway hammer needs different applications in different parts of the scale. The tenor usually comes up fairly easily and quickly, the bass needs a bit more and more toward the crown and the treble needs either several applications or a stronger application. It's the treble area that is most of the problem and I go back and forth between using several applications of a thinner solution or fewer (or a single) application of a stronger solution. I am of the mind that you are often better off if you can choose the strength you need to get where you want in one application because the hammer is less receptive to absorbing the lacquer deeper in the hammer the more applications you use. Choosing the right strength, however, can be tricky and using something which is too strong can have negative effects, as I've described. But everyone has their own methods and goals and I'm glad that you've found a solution that works for you (pun intended). David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel) Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:21 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up The thing is David, they don't get like rocks. I've been working with Steinway hammers on performance pianos this way for many years. I'll repeat though that it is critical to match the amount and dilution of the lacquer to the weight of the hammer. I happen to like the results I get with heavy hammers using this method. My standard strikeweight curve for performance pianos (Ds) is what David Stanwood has labeled "top high". Our performance pianos get new hammers every 3-5 years depending on the amount of use they get. It is easy and fast to manage the voicing using shallow needling on the crown. I have a tool I made with 7 needles across that only stick out 2mm or so which I call my tenderizer. It gets rid of a harsh attack very quickly. The only hammers I've ever locked horns with that were like rocks and kept getting harder were hard-pressed... Eric ________________________________________ From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love [davidlovepianos at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:43 AM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up I'm glad that all worked out but needing 2:1 and 1:1 applications I just think something is wrong there. With that strong an application within a month or two those hammer will be like rocks. You are right, a "hard pressed" hammer should not need lacquer, but the often do in the last 5 or 6 notes. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel) Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up Hi Israel, We have 7 Ds here and I would be happy to have any of them on any stage - 2 are new NY instruments so I know they were pre-lacquered. 4 of the others were re-hammered within the past few years using Stanwood precision Touch Designs and I really can't remember if they were pre-lacquered hammers...my guess is that one of them probably is. My experience has been that the pre-soaked hammers behave in the same way in subsequent soakings that the older (recently older, I might add) NY hammers (they have increased in quality quite a bit in the last 5 years or so). The way your set behaved sounds really strange to me because as David Love said, the first application soaks right in all the way to the core in just a few seconds. On some sets I've even wondered if they were really soaked. Maybe you got a bum set or something. Both of the new Ds delivered last December needed more lacquer once thay got on our stages as opposed to the selection room and are now big and bold and ready for prime-time. I used 2:1 Acetone/lacquer from the top down till blended in at around C5 and 3:1 the rest of the way. The last D we have is a Hamburg which was delivered in March. I haven't had the opportunity to do any voicing on it yet since the halls have been very busy since it came. It is a lovely piano the way it is but the treble is thin compared to the NY Ds. I would never put lacquer in a hard-pressed hammer until I've tried all the regular techniques to no avail. I've found it extremely neccessary to match hammer hardness to weight...All these NY Ds have very heavy hammers and hence need a lot of juice...even 1:1 in the last octave. Light hammers get really nasty sounding if they are too hard. It sounds like you've done the right thing for the set in question and I'm happy you were able to ressurect them! Eric ________________________________________ From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Israel Stein [custos3 at comcast.net] Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 11:14 AM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: [CAUT] Getting lacquer out of hammers - follow up Hello again, For all of you who are claiming success with the pre-hardened Steinway hammers - how many of you have had success with them on a top-quality concert hall stage instrument? Which is the situation we found ourselves in her at SF State. I have used those hammers before also, with good - even excellent - results. In less demanding situations. But when it came to the very demanding concert hall use - the hammers, as delivered, fell short. They never delivered the volume that this instrument is capable of - pianists complained that it took too much work to get the volume they needed, and nothing we did could improve that. Flushing the hardener and starting over gave much more satisfactory results - both in terms of volume and tone color. Which tells me that having full control of the hardening process may work better than depending on what they do in the factory. Of course, there is always the possibility that this set of hammers is an exception - that for some reason it was overhardened at the factory. I still prefer, in the future, to put the lacquer where I want it if i need to use Steinway hammers and not depend on the factory's alleged 30-second soaking. As long as Steinway makes un-hardened hammers available - which I believe they do. Israel Stein==
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