Hi Ben,
You are welcome. It seems that many are making you a target for ranting and raving for no reason.
God bless
Bill Balmer, RPT
University of Findlay and Ohio Northern University
In a message dated 04/25/09 14:16:43 US Eastern Standard Time, sloaneba at ucmail.uc.edu writes:
Thank you a dozen times over Bill Balmer!
I recently started posting, and fortunately have a personality that tends to be here now, forgets about yesterday, not hold grudges, and also understand that patience is the contrary virtue of anger, something people on this list need to have more of when engaging in a conversational development to understanding the piano. This can be difficult when the piano we talk about is not in front of us, and at a place where everyone has different typing abilities. I can only assume that someone held to be a good piano player like Fred Sturm will tend to write posts that take more time to get through than the hen peckers, as that the practiced piano player has an advantage at the computer keyboard. My feeling is that if this is dragging on, stop reading here, for this and every post. Write ‘till your hearts content.
I was sort of hoping for something like a dialectical method, similar to what is described here: http://www.sfcp.org.uk/socratic_dialogue.htm
Moreover on Nichtgebunden, Fred Sturm stated,
“I appreciate your more succinct statement, though I continue to be baffled concerning its relevance to any conversation anyone has been having on this list”
Actually Fred it was you that discussed the chronological origins of piano tuning on the 11th of April, and began sharing some of your research under the heading Schubert temperament redux, I believe.
You went on to state:
Perhaps you can find another, more appropriate forum. There is a tuning forum, I think called TUNING-L, maybe in Yahoo groups, that might be up your alley.
I do not understand how discussion of tuning could in any way be considered irrelevant in your eyes in light of how much you discuss it on this list. To some extent I only continued your thought, and from your posts, I can understand why you might consider what I stated an oversimplification. However, in the conservatory environment, the account Forkel gives about Bach definitely has the potential to put the piano technician in the position to achieve something like tenure, a source that however important yours are will appeal far more to the musicians around College And University Technicians. Tenure was created in part for the concept of academic freedom, and by removing the possibility of being fired, gives the institution the capacity to distance themselves from the convictions of the Professor, for instance, if he publishes a controversial book. Are you against that, and a piano technician having it?
Don Mannino stated:
“Is English not your first language? Asides from the heading of your message being German (unbound? the connection with your long post seems a bit tenuous), your writing syntax indicates that English has perhaps been recently learned. Is this correct?”
I am afraid my footnotes may or may not have appeared with the original post; for that, I am sorry. On the subject of language, translations have the potential of being misleading, and sometimes it is only possible to use the original word as the translator of Forkel did in an English version; hence, the heading. It seemed like the most appropriate word for reasons that can be understood only be reading the post.
A recent post dated 4/3/09 I cut and pasted at the bottom by Henry Nicolaides led to a discussion about a translation of Carl-Johan Forss, and whether shift or replace would be better to convey the idea of a new pin-block installation. Though too unfamiliar with the book, and most of all, the original word translated, I do think in the case of a pin-block that shift could be more appropriate in some ways. What would be shifted, however, would be the plate, and then possibly with that, the string height, which would change the way the piano responds to action geometry, and if the bridge is not modified to match modification of the plate height due to shifting the pin block, a change in downbearing, modifying the appropriate level of the string on Baldwin accu-just hitch pin. Shift would convey the meaning better to some extent.
It is apparent from following posts on the subject that the same translation is used for replacing other action parts, and in the case of those, I do not know if shift would be better in some ways. It would be interesting to know the original word; perhaps it would be more appropriate.
The Stanwood guys modify specs to conform with those of the factory, which frequently deviates from them. I suppose you could do so with the pin-block assuming one has enough knowledge.
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of wbis290
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 10:02 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Nichtgebunden
Hi Ben,
I think that you are right about some of the people being a little too sensitive. It seems that there is a little group that thinks that only their opinion counts and if someone else thinks differently, this group can say whatever they want about that person and that this is O.K. for this little group to do so. I do see a lot of humor in many of these responses if only people would not be so sensitive to those outside of the little group. This is too bad as this site should be to share information and to respect all opinions and not just those of a select few even though they are excellent at their craft and do have a lot to share. I have not been one who has been put down or hurt at any time, but, I have talked to others who have not shared what they want to say due to the fact that they also notice that anyone outside of the select few as righteous are liable to be viewed as bumkins. Too bad, there is so much to be learned by all! and from all. We all need to lighten up. None of us are the greatest thing to hit the realm of piano techs, there is always someone who is better at various aspects of the craft then we are, and all of us can learn from everyone.
God bless
Bill Balmer, RPT
University of Findlay and Ohio Northern University
In a message dated 04/24/09 12:54:45 US Eastern Standard Time, sloaneba at ucmail.uc.edu writes:
Greetings fellow Piano Techs!
If it is any consolation, who could have a problem with Don Mannino. Who has sacrificed for the guild more? His willingness to teach is second to none. We had him do a technical in Cincinnati, and I feel genuine guilt when I do not follow his instructions on voicing and other things he is so convincing a teacher. I have learned too much from him to feel any animosity whatsoever, and if that was the spirit in which my comment was taken, please forgive me. I was joking around a bit, and I thought he was too. It is all in good fun, I thought.
I don't think I have had as much contact with Fred Strum. But I do read posts that go on and on, and I find his to be enviable. I would like very much for him to be able to condense the tuning specific research he has done and make it available for all of us, and in no way mean to discourage him from doing so. Sometimes that sort of research takes more than one language as well. I wi! ll concede that I do to some extent understand how the Grout could seem directed at something else, but have some difficulty separating music from tuning. I also understand someone completely who would want to live in New Mexico, one of the coolest places in the country. I can only assume he is an excellent technician for getting employed there.
Maybe I am not sensitive enough, but I think you can take things too personally. If I am wrong, or unintelligible, I want to know. If I offended anyone, or was disrespectful, I sincerely am sorry. These guys are the best we got in the country, and I am proud to be chastised by them; they don't need my approval.
I will work on trying to communicate ideas more effectively in the future, and believe it or not, appreciate feedback, whether or not affirming my contentions. Back to Work!
Thanks for the comments,
- Ben Sloane RPT
-----Ori! ginal Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bo unces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 1:29 PM
To: 'caut at ptg.org'
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Nichtgebunden
Thank you Jim.
Eric Wolfley, RPT
Director of Piano Services
College-Conservatory of Music
University of Cincinnati
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jim Busby
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:13 PM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Nichtgebunden
Ben,
You seem to be getting a bit out of line for this "CAUT" line. No, I haven't published anything either so don't even google it.
Just a friendly bit of advice. When you post here if your post is too long most people won't read it. I love Fred, but sometimes I even delete his posts, (sorry Fred) even though I do save most of them. That's just how it is on CAUT, and other such venues.
You really don't want to disrespect Don Mannino or ! Fred. Don may not be published, but is as at the very TOP of his game (as a piano tech) and is highly admired and sought after for advice. Don very well could write volumes, and they would sell well. I would buy anything he wrote. Same with Fred. They are both very nice people as well, and while their post may have seemed a bit disrespectful they are both gentlemen. If you do tick them off you really have crossed the line.
In summary, shorter, more succinct posts are easier to read and better accepted, and I think that is where Fred and Don seemed a bit irritated. I usually just hit the delete button... Don't blast me now. I'm just trying to help, even though you didn't ask.
Jim Busby RPT
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Sloane, Benjamin (sloaneba)
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:57 AM
To: 'caut at ptg.org'
Subject: Re: [CAUT] Nichtgebunden
Fred Stur! m asked,
"What exactly are you trying to say and why?" It is not on my authority, but that of Donald J. Grout, Claude V. Palisca, and Johann Nikolaus Forkel that I conclude:
1. The limitations of how accurately we can tune are not epistemological, but based on the instrument itself. Richard Strauss described orchestration just the same way in his revision of the Berlioz "Treatise on Instrumentation," and disparaged the capacity of a keyboard player to compose, due to his or her lack of familiarity with the orchestra. Not only tuning, but the music itself, is based on what the instrument you are using is capable of, not theory.
2. Equal temperament started in the 16th century.
3. People started compromising the tonic, subdominant, and dominant in the direction of equal temperament in the 15th century.
Fred, your argument is with Grout, Palisca, and Forkel, not with me.
Don Mannino asked:
Is English not your first language? Asides from the heading o! f your message being German (unbound? the connection with your long post seems a bit tenuous), your writing syntax indicates that English has perhaps been recently learned. Is this correct?
Hey whatda ya no, I type Don Mannino in Amazon books and get nuttin' you wrote. I would be happy to see a list of publications, out of print, of course, by Don Mannino. Let me see what I get with Fred Sturm, hmmmm... what a surprise, it looks like nothing you wrote even came up. There must be something wrong with Amazon, what kinda site is this???!!! You didn't happen to write "Changes Over Time, the Evolution of Jazz Arranging," did you Fred? Let me know when you get published yourself, and I will think of rescinding what I wrote. I'll even buy a copy.
-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Fred Sturm
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 10:12 AM
To: caut at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [CAUT] N! ichtgebunden
On Apr 24, 2009, at 3:59 AM, Sloane, Benjami n (sloaneba) wrote:
> Seeing that what I claim about keyboards, tuning, and maintenance
> on my authority-whether or not acknowledging it as such guesswork-
> now may or may not be true according to better authority, it is a
> good time for me to make assertions yet on the authority of even
> others that will bolster some of my firmer convictions stated,
> authorities that cannot be disputed in the CAUT environment or on
> the CAUT list, by anyone.
Hi Benjamin,
I am very puzzled. This extremely long and rambling post was a propos
of what? In response to what? What exactly are you trying to say and
why? I am guessing it has something to do with the history of tuning
systems, but exactly what is beyond me.
BTW, with respect to the Palisca/Grout textbook, it has been taken
over by Peter Burkholde! r, a college mate of mine (I accompanied him in
voice lessons). A new edition came out recently, I think Peter's
second stab at it. I wouldn't take such a generalized textbook as
being a "final authority" on anything, though such works do tend to
"follow the commonly accepted path." If you want details on a specific
area, like historical tuning, you need to look at specialized books
and articles. The generalizations of a general textbook often miss the
details that matter the most.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm at unm.edu
Hi List,
Once again I request the wisdom of cumulative minds and experience. Thank you for your comments about my prior questions. I appreciate your feedback, which to date has saved me time, expense, and most of all help me solve some problems.
My prior experience rebuilding pianos generally was to replace (or shift the pin block as referenced in the new book authored by Carl-Johan Forss) the pin block since most were 50+ years old with evidence of deterioration in some form. Some "newer" instruments I cleaned the holes as best I could with a wire rifle brush and re-pinned with #3 or #4 pins depending on torque.
I would speculate the reaming may give a better consistency one pin to another and may also elimanate any scoring caused by older pins. I have several pianos that the pins "jump" with some that are so tight I have to extend the tuning lever all the way out and others almost move by looking at them. Keep the block and repin or replace the block? Budget and time are obviously a concern. I would prefer to put the time and $'s into one more project...and when discussing these things with our director it certainly has helped to have your opinions.
Thanks and Best Regards,
Henry Nicolaides
Piano Technician, School of Music
Southern Illinois University
Carbondale, Illinois
email: henryn at siu.edu
drsnic4 at hotmail.com
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