Alan, I put a set on a D last month and I still had to add juice. Not being as experienced with these hammers as some of you, I got Vince to give a listen and he had me put in even more juice! There seems to be quite a range of what people think constitutes good tone in a hammer. I rely on Vince's experience (both Eric S., Scott Jones and others think very highly of his voicing) and the difference seems to be that the Steinway folks (and Vince) want "contrast" in tone color, not just a "pretty sound" that can get louder and softer yet still has the same basic timbre. The sound I heard at a previous convention (from rebuilt S&S pianos) had no contrast! On the other hand Vince's pianos can get the most sublime pp and an almost, but not really, harsh/nasty ff. It has a true color contrast that concert pianist who have played here have raved about. At the PNWC Scott Jones couldn't say enough good things about the old M that Vince voiced for me. Later, Eric Schandall came by and glowed about it. BTW, it was a 1967 M right next to a brand new M voiced "pretty". No contest! A piano should be able to get mean if the music requires it. I don't know how else to express it in words... JMHO - FWIW. Jim Busby BYU -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Alan McCoy Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:55 PM To: College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org> Subject: Re: [CAUT] The "new" S&S Hammers. I put on a set of the new ones last February. They indeed came in brighter than they have in the past. Too bright for my taste and in this situation it meant a lot of needling to get them acceptable. I was replacing a set that had been over-lacquered to an extent I've not seen. Briquettes. This set was not only harder, but also when they cut the individual hammers they cut them parallel, but at an angle. When you hang them they look as though you have bored them at an angle, when in fact you have not. (Picture the set of knives that cut the hammers apart. They should be perfectly parallel with the shanks. In this case they were about 5 degrees off. Everything looked cattywhompus). I talked with Kent Webb about it and he said that they indeed had had that problem and that it had been taken care of. I was not all that hopeful though, because I have noticed that problem on other hammers both on new Steinways and in other sets. Another issue was that the hammers moldings were not long enough. I couldn't get the tails as long as I wanted (1 1/16"). Also I have to re-arc the tails to get the radius I want (2.75" to 3"). My take on this is that I want as much control over the hammers as I can have. I would prefer that they go back to the old prep so that I can have more control over how much lacquer to use. Also I would prefer that they not do anything at all to the hammer. Leave them long so I can get the tail length I need. Don't want my tails arced or the cove cut either. All I need is a hammer that has a fairly solid core to build tone with. I'll do all the rest. I generally like working with Steinway hammers. Ever since I spent a week at the tone seminar with Scott Jones, I have felt very comfortable working with softer hammers that I have to build up. But I was not happy at all with with that last set and will not be all that likely to try them again. Too many mechanical and tonal issues to deal with. Ronsen hammers are much more to my liking, though they too sometimes are cut inconsistently- width varying as much as a mm hammer to hammer. I'll be installing another set of Wurzen hammers next week. They look good - nice shape, consistently cut. Very little will be needed in the way of shaping, needling or juicing. Last set I put on a Baldwin L were pretty dark and needed juicing. (6 piano gig, and it needed to speak more to be heard amongst the Ds). It'll be interesting to see how they do on this M&H BB. Alan -- Alan McCoy, RPT Eastern Washington University amccoy at mail.ewu.edu 509-359-4627 > From: Douglas Wood <dew2 at u.washington.edu> > Reply-To: "College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org>" <caut at ptg.org> > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:14:01 -0700 > To: "College and University Technicians <caut at ptg.org>" <caut at ptg.org> > Subject: Re: [CAUT] The "new" S&S Hammers. > > I, too, am very fond of the S&S NY hammer. It is important to > recognize that they don't really voice up the way other hammers do. > Lacquer is an essential part of the tone-building process, and > shoulder needling either does nothing or just cuts power. The needles > go in the string grooves (or right next to them if there's a hard > spot). Deep needles (6, 7 or even 8 mm) for "blastissimo" voicing, > shallower (2-4 mm) for mP voicing--do that after the power work. > > The hammers still want skinning--takes some of the ping out. Fully- > developed tone exaggerates any other tone-building issues--traveling, > spacing, fitting, etc. > > The resultant sound is very colorful. Changes color a lot with > different approaches to the keyboard. Often it is not "beautiful" in > itself, but can be made "beautiful" with good playing. Or terrifying, > or haunting, or... > > To assert that Steinway somehow can't get the sound they want from > their pianos seems either arrogant or ignorant. They do, after all, > cater to most of the world's greatest pianists. > > I'm happy to share other perspectives from 20 years of working with > these hammers, either on or off-list, if you care. > > Doug Wood > > > On Sep 13, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Wolfley, Eric ((wolfleel)) wrote: > >> Dennis, >> >> I've had nothing but good experience with these hammers and I've found >> that the quality control (i.e. shape and uniformity) is much better >> now >> than it was even a couple of years ago. After experimenting with many >> other hammers over the years, I won't put any other hammers on a NY >> Steinway. In the past I would find myself soaking Steinway hammers 2-3 >> times in a 3:1 lacquer thinner to lacquer solution (2:1 for large >> grands) before I felt there was a good foundation to the tone. With >> the >> pre-lacquered hammers I'll still find myself soaking the set at least >> once. Obviously this will make the surface quite bright. It is easy >> and >> quick to get this harshness to go away with shallow needling at the >> strikepoint which leaves the firmness underneath producing a big, fat >> tone. This is the method that the Steinway concert techs use and it is >> quite effective. I use this method whether the piano is going into a >> practice room, living room or onstage though the smaller, lighter >> hammers tend to need less lacquer. There must be a differentiation >> made >> between the term "power" and "brightness". Some people (notably >> pianists) seem to use those words interchangeably. The current NY >> hammers sound fairly "bright" right out of the box but it is mainly >> surface brightness. This brightness can be manipulated by surface >> needling but if the hammer doesn't have a good foundation the tone may >> then sound dead. If the hammer seems to "die" when you shallow-needle >> the strikepoint, it probably needs more lacquer underneath. >> >> The hammers are lacquered at the factory by being dipped together as a >> set in what I was told is 3:1 lacquer for 30 seconds. This ensures a >> certain amount of uniformity. It is hard to imagine that you have >> gotten >> a set that is overlacquered unless somebody lost track and dipped your >> set twice. Of course, stranger things have happened. BTW, I always >> listen to the hammers in the piano before doing any lacquering. >> >> Also BTW, Steinway will be offering a voicing class as part of the >> CAUT >> program next June at the PTG convention in Anaheim. All, as always, >> are >> welcome, of course. >> >> Eric >> >> Eric Wolfley, RPT >> Head Piano Technician >> Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music >> University of Cincinnati >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of >> johnsond >> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:31 AM >> To: College and University Technicians >> Subject: [CAUT] The "new" S&S Hammers. >> >> >> Anyone care to share your experiences with the new S&S Hammers from >> this >> >> summer? They come with a note to us Technicians...... >> ________ >> "Due to a process improvement in the manufacturing...... you may >> notice >> >> a slightly harder hammer. With this in mind we would suggest that you >> do not juice these hammers before testing in the piano. Juicing these >> hammers before installation and pre-testing may result in a brighter >> than anticipated tone. " >> ________ >> >> OK- Actually the hammers looked good and shaped up just fine. I did >> not put one drop of lacquer or any other hardener on these hammers >> except for 4 notes in the high treble. The piano has been back in >> service now for a couple months. They are bright indeed!! Just this >> morning the faculty pianist actually told me that now he "hates" this >> piano. I am trying keep him patient and working with them, but >> there is >> >> only so much needling I can do. I can't take the piano out of service >> to wash them with thinner until maybe Christmas break. The worst part >> is that it starts to make me look bad when the player is beginning to >> wish he had the old worn hammers back...... @#$! I'm sorry, but we >> are not paid enough to take that kind of responsibility for materials. >> >> >> So.... Anyone else have a better experience? Maybe it's just this >> set- >> >> thanks, >> >> Dennis Johnson >> St. Olaf College >> >
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