Pinning and Tone

[Isaac sur Noos]

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MessageThanks, Joe, David, I guess we have examined all the possibilities
now ;>)

Bests
Isaac OLEG

Entretien et réparation de pianos.

PianoTech
17 rue de Choisy
94400 VITRY sur SEINE
FRANCE
tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
cell: 06 60 42 58 77

  -----Message d'origine-----
  De : caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de Joe
And Penny Goss
  Envoyé : jeudi 23 octobre 2003 19:02
  À : College and University Technicians
  Objet : Re: Pinning and Tone


  With one handle or without one
  Joe Goss
  imatunr@srvinet.com
  www.mothergoosetools.com
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: David's Email
    To: oleg-i@noos.fr ; College and University Technicians
    Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 9:24 AM
    Subject: Re: Pinning and Tone


    With a handle

    David I.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Isaac sur Noos
      To: College and University Technicians
      Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:56 AM
      Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone


      Don Mannino, hello,

      I noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take too much play
in the pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the bushing grows,
the part can't swell because of the material, and when getting dry after,
some play is installed.

      I came to a few pianos where the birseye itself have developped
ovalisation with time (1978 models).
      So, while I like a lot the grand jack, I am far from convinced with
the other parts, for instance noise and extra friction on RX... grand
whippen lever, kind of feeling the weight and texture of the damper lever in
RX series.

      ABS does not give as tone, only thump. And I regret this, because I
appreciate your grands, after having installed in them firm Yamaha front
punchings (discard those cotton style punchings !) and regulate them so the
touch is more light, they tone very well generally (I mean for the
soundboard/strings/hammers parts)

      By the way are the broaches you sell to be used without a handle ?.

      Best Regards.



      Isaac OLEG

      Entretien et réparation de pianos.

      PianoTech
      17 rue de Choisy
      94400 VITRY sur SEINE
      FRANCE
      tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
      fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
      cell: 06 60 42 58 77

        -----Message d'origine-----
        De : caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de
Don Mannino
        Envoyé : mercredi 22 octobre 2003 19:20
        À : College and University Technicians
        Objet : RE: Pinning and Tone


        Alan,

        I see what you're getting at.  I don't know of any simple answer to
troubleshooting the friction other than removing parts and testing for
friction.  You can do general troubleshooting by swinging the action to find
the loosest and tightest parts, and you can measure down and upweight to get
general friction levels, but removing parts and feeling the softness of the
bushing and checking the friction with a spring gauge are really the
definitive way to know what's up.

        Here are some pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give you
any real helpful procedures to follow:

        - Too much friction causes a dull tone with poor projection and
sometimes poor sustain.  It affects the action performance as well, of
course.
        - Too little friction causes no problems in tone at all in and of
itself.  It is only because we are using cloth bushings that low friction
results in poor tone because the hammer is not controlled in its motion well
enough.  Please understand me here - if you have a very, very firm bushing
that will pin with low friction and still have excellent side control, the
tone should be fine.  It is the limitation of using a soft bushing material
that forces us to pin with sufficient friction to get the control we need.
It is not the friction itself which gives good tone - it is the firmness of
the bushing.
        - Teflon bushings gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they
didn't last long enough.  They were an excellent idea, but the bushing
material was not nearly as durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed
with use and got noisy.
        - Poor quality cloth forces us to use more friction in the center to
get the controlled motion of the hammer.  I used to work on some grand
pianos in the 80s that came from the factory with very poor, spongy cloth in
the hammer centers.  I would re-size the bushings with water and alcohol,
then repin from the factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 pins.  This made thinner,
firmer bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - 4 grams friction, and resulted
in dramatically improved tone.  These pianos were dull and lifeless from the
factory with 6 to 10 grams friction in the soft hammer centers, and a firm
fit with lower friction really made them sing.

        So, when evaluating friction levels in a given piano, I judge by
sound and by feel of the parts, and decide how to work with them.  Now I
work mostly with Kawai parts, and the bushings are very firm with mostly
excellent control of the hammer.  In dry climates they sometimes get too
thin in tone because the hammer center bushings dry out and become too
loose, and repinning them to fit the climate brings the power back up in the
tone.  I find that if I pin for good solid tone in the mid treble, that same
friction level is great for the whole piano.

        Don Mannino

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Alan McCoy [mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu]
          Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:30 AM
          To: College and University Technicians
          Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone


          Thanks Don,

          In part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between
friction and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal difference
between a note that has a friction problem vs one that has a firmness
problem?

          My normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes checking
action center friction, duh, and I check side to side play gang-style
checking for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see if someone has
figured out a way to systematically check for both friction and firmness in
an efficient way (ie without painstakingly removing every flange!!)

          Alan

          PS Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-)   Hope things are
great down there in Modesto.
            -----Original Message-----
            From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]On
Behalf Of Don Mannino
            Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11 AM
            To: caut@ptg.org
            Subject: FW: Pinning and Tone


            Alan,

            The tone of the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has
a pretty distinctive sound to it.  I would describe it as a thin and weak
tone.  Checking the friction level in a thin sounding note, repinning it,
and listening will tell you a lot.

            Experience is the best teacher here.  I don't have a
specification to tell you, except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone
by ear.  I suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though.  X amount of
deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the pin.

            Don Mannino

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