---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Just out of curiosity, why was all this posted. We've all seen it once and don't really need to again! :-) Avery At 10:03 PM 10/23/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: performance piano policies (Keith McGavern) > 2. RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Fred Sturm) > 3. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > 4. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Horace Greeley) > 5. Steinway 45 upright (Clarence Zeches) > 6. Re: Steinway 45 upright > 7. Re: Steinway 45 upright > 8. Re: Steinway 45 upright (Ed Sutton) > 9. Steinway 45 upright (Jon Page) > 10. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Tim Coates) > 11. RE: Steinway 45 upright (Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)) > 12. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Horace Greeley) > 13. RE: Steinway 45 upright (Don) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:10:55 -0500 >From: Keith McGavern <kam544@gbronline.com> >To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: Re: performance piano policies >Message-ID: <a06002020bbab524274b5@[192.168.2.25]> >In-Reply-To: <AGEIKLKAHGAPMAOPOLMIKEGJCDAA.amccoy@mail.ewu.edu> >References: <AGEIKLKAHGAPMAOPOLMIKEGJCDAA.amccoy@mail.ewu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:49:11 -0600 >From: Fred Sturm <fssturm@unm.edu> >To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma >Message-ID: <1353762.1065714550@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> >In-Reply-To: <627565.1065688287@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> >References: <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net> > <627565.1065688287@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Precedence: list >Message: 2 > > > --On Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:55 PM -0600 Roger Jolly > > <roger.j@sasktel.net> wrote: > > > >> > >>> Hi Fred, > >> > >> 4gms of friction seems to be the optimum for tone > >> production, _as it keeps the knuckle firmly in contact with the >balancier_. >snip > >> Regards Roger. > >Roger, > Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to > the >mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of >the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage >are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of >firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the >throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the >string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So >from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a >role. > Where it does have an effect is in the neuro-muscular response of > the >pianist. I am convinced that a fine pianist can feel the difference between >2 and 4 grams friction in a hammershank center, in terms of what needs to >be done to create the final velocity of the hammer, and that 4 grams will >be found preferable in allowing more nuanced control. But even more >important is evenness from note to note. Better all 2 gram than higglety >pigglety with an average of 4 grams. > All of this is more in the realm of mental picturing > than measurable >physics, because it is next to impossible to separate one factor from the >others with any reliability. You have to assume travel, square hanging of >hammers, evenness of felt density and elasticity, evenness of shank >firmness/sponginess, etc., etc. But when all you do to a fly away action is >repin it, the result is usually quite dramatic, at least in my experience. > > >Regards, >Fred Sturm >University of New Mexico >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:03:21 EDT >From: A440A@aol.com >To: caut@ptg.org >Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma >Message-ID: <34.4030402d.2cb73529@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Precedence: list >Message: 3 > >Fred writes: > ><< Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to the >mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of >the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage >are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of >firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the >throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the >string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So >from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a >role. >> > >Hmm, there is more to be explored here than I have time to, but there are >some divergent ideas in my mind about how pinnng affects tone. I don't >totally >accept that it is wobble in the hammer during its approach to the string, nor >loss of contact between knuckle and jack. > I think it is wobble during contact, caused by the restorative forces of >the displaced string imparting some energy back to the hammer/shank >structure. >I think the pinning is responsible for supplying a degree of impedance to the >hammer and shank. Without this "anchoring mechanism", the shank absorbs the >transient shock of contact and by its unfettered vibration, causes a short >interference between the hammer and string. Perhaps the shank goes into a >momentary random oscillation during contact which causes the tone to >suffer, I >dunno. I do know that pinning up from 1 gram to 5 makes a clear >difference in >tone. > > I say this because the sound of a loose pin is readily apparent on a very >soft blow, where I wouldn't expect a lot of hammer wobble or shank flex to be >in play. I asked a tympanist about controlling the sound by how firmly he >gripped the mallets and he said "Of course, there is a wide range of tone >available depending on how firmly you hold the sticks". (that may or may >not be >germane). > >Another consideration in bushing tightness and action resistance is that when >a firm blow is delivered, the bushing cloth compresses on the "away" side, >effectively only touching one side of the bushing. (If you look at a pin >in the >bushing under a magnifying glass while applying pressure, you will see it >move >into one side of the cloth, can there be much friction from the unloaded >side?). I wouldn't want to bet that a pianist could pick out notes that >had 2 >grams less friction in the hammer flange! >regards, > >Ed Foote RPT >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/ >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html > <A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html"> >MP3.com: Six Degrees of Tonality</A> >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 17:08:50 -0700 >From: Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu> >To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma >Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031009165459.0228cec0@popserver4.stanford.edu> >In-Reply-To: <34.4030402d.2cb73529@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Precedence: list >Message: 4 > > >Ed, > >At 06:03 PM 10/9/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >Fred writes: > > > ><< Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to the > >mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of > >the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage > >are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of > >firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the > >throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the > >string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So > >from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a > >role. >> > > > >Hmm, there is more to be explored here than I have time to, but there are > >some divergent ideas in my mind about how pinnng affects tone. I don't > >totally > >accept that it is wobble in the hammer during its approach to the > string, nor > >loss of contact between knuckle and jack. > >Agreed. > > > I think it is wobble during contact, caused by the restorative forces of > >the displaced string imparting some energy back to the hammer/shank > >structure. > >I think the pinning is responsible for supplying a degree of impedance > to the > >hammer and shank. Without this "anchoring mechanism", the shank absorbs the > >transient shock of contact and by its unfettered vibration, causes a short > >interference between the hammer and string. Perhaps the shank goes into a > >momentary random oscillation during contact which causes the tone to > >suffer, I > >dunno. I do know that pinning up from 1 gram to 5 makes a clear > >difference in > >tone. > >Definitely. > > > > > I say this because the sound of a loose pin is readily apparent on a > very > >soft blow, where I wouldn't expect a lot of hammer wobble or shank flex > to be > >in play. I asked a tympanist about controlling the sound by how firmly he > >gripped the mallets and he said "Of course, there is a wide range of tone > >available depending on how firmly you hold the sticks". (that may or may > >not be > >germane). > >That is why I suggested the recordings that I did - this effect is very >obvious. > > >Another consideration in bushing tightness and action resistance is that > when > >a firm blow is delivered, the bushing cloth compresses on the "away" side, > >effectively only touching one side of the bushing. (If you look at a pin > >in the > >bushing under a magnifying glass while applying pressure, you will see it > >move > >into one side of the cloth, can there be much friction from the unloaded > >side?). I wouldn't want to bet that a pianist could pick out notes that > >had 2 > >grams less friction in the hammer flange! > >Actually, I have worked with several and know of a few more. People who >can with whom I have directly worked include(d): Menachem Pressler, John >Perry, Jim Boyk, Alfred Brendl, Anton Kuerti, a couple of others. People >who have been reported to me as being able to include: Ivan Moravec, and >Slatislav Richter. > >Jim Boyk, who has been Artist in Residence at Cal Tech for roughly 30 years >can not only accurately detect variations of less than 2 gms between keys, >he can also accurately describe jack placement under the knuckle to +/- < >0.5mm. This is very scary the first time one encounters it. > >Pressler works more intuitively - less reductively - but just as >accurately. Think of an architect who "sees masses" which "describe" >certain "shapes". The challenge there is being able to translate the >generality to the specific. > >All of this being said - those folks comprise a pretty rarified >atmosphere. Moreover, it is not always those whose names are better known >who have the most sensitive touch...sadly, it is quite often the case that >they do not. > >Best. > >Horace > > >------------------------------ > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:56:26 EDT >From: A440A@aol.com >To: caut@ptg.org >Subject: Re: Steinway 45 upright >Message-ID: <112.299b444e.2cb76bca@aol.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Precedence: list >Message: 6 > >Greetings, ><< a lot of false beats in the treble. I have reseated the >strings, etc, but have not been able to eliminate the false beats. With >the age and use on it, will the only solution be to restring it? >> > >I would replace one of the false strings and see if the string is the >problem. I would suspect the bridge pins are the real culprit, though. >Good luck, >Ed Foote RPT >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/ >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html > <A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html"> >MP3.com: Six Degrees of Tonality</A> >------------------------------ > > >Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:04:35 -0500 >From: Tim Coates <tcoates@iw.net> >To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma >Message-ID: <3F86AE63.9080804@iw.net> >References: <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net> > <627565.1065688287@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> > <1353762.1065714550@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Precedence: list >Message: 10 > >Does anyone remember the classes Chris Robinson did using a Realtime >Spectrum Analyzer (borrowed from Kurztweil Company)? I know it was in >Philadelphia about 12 years ago. Using a mechanism to create an even >blow and recorded with the analyzer he showed how repinning to proper >specs (at that time 6 grams) changed dramatically the tone of a >particular note. > >Pretty eye opening. Previously people speculated about the tonal >affects of proper flange friction. He showed it scientifically to be true. > >Tim Coates >University of South Dakota >University of Sioux Falls > >Fred Sturm wrote: > > >>>> Hi Fred, > >>> > >>> > >>> 4gms of friction seems to be the optimum for tone > >>> production, _as it keeps the knuckle firmly in contact with the > >> > > balancier_. > > snip > > > >>> Regards Roger. > >> > > > > Roger, > > Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to > > the mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of > > view of the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, > > and leverage are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and > > jack. Where lack of firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is > > introduced during the throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble > > upon impact with the string (ie, what the hammer does during the time > > it remains in contact). So from a purely tonal point of view, I don't > > think friction per se plays a role. > > Where it does have an effect is in the neuro-muscular response of > > the pianist. I am convinced that a fine pianist can feel the > > difference between 2 and 4 grams friction in a hammershank center, in > > terms of what needs to be done to create the final velocity of the > > hammer, and that 4 grams will be found preferable in allowing more > > nuanced control. But even more important is evenness from note to > > note. Better all 2 gram than higglety pigglety with an average of 4 grams. > > All of this is more in the realm of mental picturing than > > measurable physics, because it is next to impossible to separate one > > factor from the others with any reliability. You have to assume > > travel, square hanging of hammers, evenness of felt density and > > elasticity, evenness of shank firmness/sponginess, etc., etc. But when > > all you do to a fly away action is repin it, the result is usually > > quite dramatic, at least in my experience. > > > > > > Regards, > > Fred Sturm > > University of New Mexico > > _______________________________________________ > > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:12:20 -0400 >From: "Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)" <WOLFLEEL@UCMAIL.UC.EDU> >To: "'College and University Technicians'" <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: RE: Steinway 45 upright >Message-ID: <9BA6DCC15456CC46894E77233173DD7CAF704A@UCMAIL5> >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C38F38.84FC65A0" >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Precedence: list >Message: 11 > >This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C38F38.84FC65A0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > >While we're on this bridge-pin subject again...I tune and service the C&A >Steinway D for the Cincinnati Symphony and the regular trail of soloists >that come through. This piano is just a couple of years old and is beginning >to drive me crazy with its Jeckle/Hyde tendencies. During the moist months >it has a big, round clear tone but as soon as it begins to dry out it >reverts a devilish false beat capo noise monster. Unfortunately, most of the >concerts are during the dry months and there is no hope of any climate >control. The soloists all like this piano but it drives me nuts and I'm >constantly trying to clean and sweeten up the capo sections without losing >any power. I've tried pounding the bridge pins in and moving the strings >around and this has had some effect, but its getting harder and harder to >clean it up. I remember past discussions about wicking CA glue down around >the bridge pins and wouldn't hesitate to try it on a practice room piano >(hmm, I think I'll try that right now) but I'm wondering how many people out >there are successfully using this technique on concert instruments. > >Eric > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Eric Wolfley >Head Piano Technician >Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music >University of Cincinnati >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jon Page [mailto:jonpage@comcast.net] >Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:20 AM >To: caut-ptg.org >Subject: Steinway 45 upright > > > >You might try tapping the bridge pins. > > >Ed S. > > >Yes, tap the bridge pins. Seating the strings on the bridge has >negligible effect. Ever since Roger pointed out tapping the pins, >I've been effecting this false beat reduction technique with good results. > >Regards, > >Jon Page > > >You might try tapping the bridge pins. > > > >Ed S. > > >Yes, tap the bridge pins. Seating the strings on the bridge has >negligible effect. Ever since Roger pointed out tapping the pins, >I've been effecting this false beat reduction technique with good results. >Regards, >Jon Page > > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C38F38.84FC65A0-- >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:38:30 -0700 >From: Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu> >To: tcoates@iw.net, College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma >Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031010073050.02489240@hgreeley.pobox.stanford.edu> >In-Reply-To: <3F86AE63.9080804@iw.net> >References: <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu> > <5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net> > <627565.1065688287@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> > <1353762.1065714550@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Precedence: list >Message: 12 > > >Tim, > >At 08:04 AM 10/10/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Does anyone remember the classes Chris Robinson did using a Realtime > >Spectrum Analyzer (borrowed from Kurztweil Company)? I know it was in > >Philadelphia about 12 years ago. Using a mechanism to create an even blow > >and recorded with the analyzer he showed how repinning to proper specs (at > >that time 6 grams) changed dramatically the tone of a particular note. > > > >Pretty eye opening. Previously people speculated about the tonal affects > >of proper flange friction. He showed it scientifically to be true. > >Yes - this was one of the best classes ever presented by anyone anyplace. > >Chris had several that were all at that same level. 12 years ago was about >at the time when Chris stopped teaching. As with a couple of other >well-known instructors, all of his material was clearly announced as being >under copyright; and a number of us were hoping that this meant an eventual >publication of some very important stuff. So far, that has not been the case. > >As Roger noted about his demonstrations of pinning, there were any number >of "slack-jawed" technicians at the end of Chris' classes. Nothing like >meticulous reductive research and careful demonstration to clear the >air. I remember sitting with several prominent factory folks who spent >most of the class time squirming in their chairs...I rather enjoyed it, >actually. > >Horace > > > > >End of caut Digest, Vol 317, Issue 1 >************************************ ______________________ Avery Todd, RPT Moores School of Music University of Houston Houston, TX ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/aa/e2/f8/07/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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