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Today's Topics:
1. Re: performance piano policies (Keith McGavern)
2. RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Fred Sturm)
3. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
4. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Horace Greeley)
5. Steinway 45 upright (Clarence Zeches)
6. Re: Steinway 45 upright
7. Re: Steinway 45 upright
8. Re: Steinway 45 upright (Ed Sutton)
9. Steinway 45 upright (Jon Page)
10. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Tim Coates)
11. RE: Steinway 45 upright (Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel))
12. Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma (Horace Greeley)
13. RE: Steinway 45 upright (Don)
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Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:10:55 -0500
From: Keith McGavern <kam544@gbronline.com>
To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: Re: performance piano policies
Message-ID: <a06002020bbab524274b5@[192.168.2.25]>
In-Reply-To: <AGEIKLKAHGAPMAOPOLMIKEGJCDAA.amccoy@mail.ewu.edu>
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:49:11 -0600
From: Fred Sturm <fssturm@unm.edu>
To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
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<5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu>
<5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net>
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> --On Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:55 PM -0600 Roger Jolly
> <roger.j@sasktel.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> 4gms of friction seems to be the optimum for tone
>> production, _as it keeps the knuckle firmly in contact with the
balancier_.
snip
>> Regards Roger.
Roger,
Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to the
mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of
the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage
are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of
firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the
throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the
string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So
from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a
role.
Where it does have an effect is in the neuro-muscular response of the
pianist. I am convinced that a fine pianist can feel the difference between
2 and 4 grams friction in a hammershank center, in terms of what needs to
be done to create the final velocity of the hammer, and that 4 grams will
be found preferable in allowing more nuanced control. But even more
important is evenness from note to note. Better all 2 gram than higglety
pigglety with an average of 4 grams.
All of this is more in the realm of mental picturing than measurable
physics, because it is next to impossible to separate one factor from the
others with any reliability. You have to assume travel, square hanging of
hammers, evenness of felt density and elasticity, evenness of shank
firmness/sponginess, etc., etc. But when all you do to a fly away action is
repin it, the result is usually quite dramatic, at least in my experience.
Regards,
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:03:21 EDT
From: A440A@aol.com
To: caut@ptg.org
Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
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Fred writes:
<< Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to the
mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of
the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage
are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of
firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the
throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the
string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So
from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a
role. >>
Hmm, there is more to be explored here than I have time to, but there are
some divergent ideas in my mind about how pinnng affects tone. I don't
totally
accept that it is wobble in the hammer during its approach to the string, nor
loss of contact between knuckle and jack.
I think it is wobble during contact, caused by the restorative forces of
the displaced string imparting some energy back to the hammer/shank
structure.
I think the pinning is responsible for supplying a degree of impedance to the
hammer and shank. Without this "anchoring mechanism", the shank absorbs the
transient shock of contact and by its unfettered vibration, causes a short
interference between the hammer and string. Perhaps the shank goes into a
momentary random oscillation during contact which causes the tone to suffer, I
dunno. I do know that pinning up from 1 gram to 5 makes a clear difference in
tone.
I say this because the sound of a loose pin is readily apparent on a very
soft blow, where I wouldn't expect a lot of hammer wobble or shank flex to be
in play. I asked a tympanist about controlling the sound by how firmly he
gripped the mallets and he said "Of course, there is a wide range of tone
available depending on how firmly you hold the sticks". (that may or may
not be
germane).
Another consideration in bushing tightness and action resistance is that when
a firm blow is delivered, the bushing cloth compresses on the "away" side,
effectively only touching one side of the bushing. (If you look at a pin in
the
bushing under a magnifying glass while applying pressure, you will see it move
into one side of the cloth, can there be much friction from the unloaded
side?). I wouldn't want to bet that a pianist could pick out notes that had 2
grams less friction in the hammer flange!
regards,
Ed Foote RPT
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
<A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html">
MP3.com: Six Degrees of Tonality</A>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 17:08:50 -0700
From: Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu>
To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031009165459.0228cec0@popserver4.stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To: <34.4030402d.2cb73529@aol.com>
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Message: 4
Ed,
At 06:03 PM 10/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Fred writes:
>
><< Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to the
>mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of view of
>the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia, and leverage
>are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and jack. Where lack of
>firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is introduced during the
>throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble upon impact with the
>string (ie, what the hammer does during the time it remains in contact). So
>from a purely tonal point of view, I don't think friction per se plays a
>role. >>
>
>Hmm, there is more to be explored here than I have time to, but there are
>some divergent ideas in my mind about how pinnng affects tone. I don't
>totally
>accept that it is wobble in the hammer during its approach to the string, nor
>loss of contact between knuckle and jack.
Agreed.
> I think it is wobble during contact, caused by the restorative forces of
>the displaced string imparting some energy back to the hammer/shank
>structure.
>I think the pinning is responsible for supplying a degree of impedance to the
>hammer and shank. Without this "anchoring mechanism", the shank absorbs the
>transient shock of contact and by its unfettered vibration, causes a short
>interference between the hammer and string. Perhaps the shank goes into a
>momentary random oscillation during contact which causes the tone to
>suffer, I
>dunno. I do know that pinning up from 1 gram to 5 makes a clear
>difference in
>tone.
Definitely.
>
> I say this because the sound of a loose pin is readily apparent on a very
>soft blow, where I wouldn't expect a lot of hammer wobble or shank flex to be
>in play. I asked a tympanist about controlling the sound by how firmly he
>gripped the mallets and he said "Of course, there is a wide range of tone
>available depending on how firmly you hold the sticks". (that may or may
>not be
>germane).
That is why I suggested the recordings that I did - this effect is very
obvious.
>Another consideration in bushing tightness and action resistance is that when
>a firm blow is delivered, the bushing cloth compresses on the "away" side,
>effectively only touching one side of the bushing. (If you look at a pin
>in the
>bushing under a magnifying glass while applying pressure, you will see it
>move
>into one side of the cloth, can there be much friction from the unloaded
>side?). I wouldn't want to bet that a pianist could pick out notes that
>had 2
>grams less friction in the hammer flange!
Actually, I have worked with several and know of a few more. People who
can with whom I have directly worked include(d): Menachem Pressler, John
Perry, Jim Boyk, Alfred Brendl, Anton Kuerti, a couple of others. People
who have been reported to me as being able to include: Ivan Moravec, and
Slatislav Richter.
Jim Boyk, who has been Artist in Residence at Cal Tech for roughly 30 years
can not only accurately detect variations of less than 2 gms between keys,
he can also accurately describe jack placement under the knuckle to +/- <
0.5mm. This is very scary the first time one encounters it.
Pressler works more intuitively - less reductively - but just as
accurately. Think of an architect who "sees masses" which "describe"
certain "shapes". The challenge there is being able to translate the
generality to the specific.
All of this being said - those folks comprise a pretty rarified
atmosphere. Moreover, it is not always those whose names are better known
who have the most sensitive touch...sadly, it is quite often the case that
they do not.
Best.
Horace
------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 21:56:26 EDT
From: A440A@aol.com
To: caut@ptg.org
Subject: Re: Steinway 45 upright
Message-ID: <112.299b444e.2cb76bca@aol.com>
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Greetings,
<< a lot of false beats in the treble. I have reseated the
strings, etc, but have not been able to eliminate the false beats. With
the age and use on it, will the only solution be to restring it? >>
I would replace one of the false strings and see if the string is the
problem. I would suspect the bridge pins are the real culprit, though.
Good luck,
Ed Foote RPT
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
<A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html">
MP3.com: Six Degrees of Tonality</A>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 08:04:35 -0500
From: Tim Coates <tcoates@iw.net>
To: College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
Message-ID: <3F86AE63.9080804@iw.net>
References: <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu>
<5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu>
<5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net>
<627565.1065688287@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu>
<1353762.1065714550@dhcp-40-0165.unm.edu>
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Does anyone remember the classes Chris Robinson did using a Realtime
Spectrum Analyzer (borrowed from Kurztweil Company)? I know it was in
Philadelphia about 12 years ago. Using a mechanism to create an even
blow and recorded with the analyzer he showed how repinning to proper
specs (at that time 6 grams) changed dramatically the tone of a
particular note.
Pretty eye opening. Previously people speculated about the tonal
affects of proper flange friction. He showed it scientifically to be true.
Tim Coates
University of South Dakota
University of Sioux Falls
Fred Sturm wrote:
>>>> Hi Fred,
>>>
>>>
>>> 4gms of friction seems to be the optimum for tone
>>> production, _as it keeps the knuckle firmly in contact with the
>>
> balancier_.
> snip
>
>>> Regards Roger.
>>
>
> Roger,
> Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree with you as to
> the mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. From the point of
> view of the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, inertia,
> and leverage are plenty to maintain firm contact between knuckle and
> jack. Where lack of firmness has its effect is in the wobble that is
> introduced during the throw of the hammer, and even more so the wobble
> upon impact with the string (ie, what the hammer does during the time
> it remains in contact). So from a purely tonal point of view, I don't
> think friction per se plays a role.
> Where it does have an effect is in the neuro-muscular response of
> the pianist. I am convinced that a fine pianist can feel the
> difference between 2 and 4 grams friction in a hammershank center, in
> terms of what needs to be done to create the final velocity of the
> hammer, and that 4 grams will be found preferable in allowing more
> nuanced control. But even more important is evenness from note to
> note. Better all 2 gram than higglety pigglety with an average of 4 grams.
> All of this is more in the realm of mental picturing than
> measurable physics, because it is next to impossible to separate one
> factor from the others with any reliability. You have to assume
> travel, square hanging of hammers, evenness of felt density and
> elasticity, evenness of shank firmness/sponginess, etc., etc. But when
> all you do to a fly away action is repin it, the result is usually
> quite dramatic, at least in my experience.
>
>
> Regards,
> Fred Sturm
> University of New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:12:20 -0400
From: "Wolfley, Eric (wolfleel)" <WOLFLEEL@UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
To: "'College and University Technicians'" <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: RE: Steinway 45 upright
Message-ID: <9BA6DCC15456CC46894E77233173DD7CAF704A@UCMAIL5>
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While we're on this bridge-pin subject again...I tune and service the C&A
Steinway D for the Cincinnati Symphony and the regular trail of soloists
that come through. This piano is just a couple of years old and is beginning
to drive me crazy with its Jeckle/Hyde tendencies. During the moist months
it has a big, round clear tone but as soon as it begins to dry out it
reverts a devilish false beat capo noise monster. Unfortunately, most of the
concerts are during the dry months and there is no hope of any climate
control. The soloists all like this piano but it drives me nuts and I'm
constantly trying to clean and sweeten up the capo sections without losing
any power. I've tried pounding the bridge pins in and moving the strings
around and this has had some effect, but its getting harder and harder to
clean it up. I remember past discussions about wicking CA glue down around
the bridge pins and wouldn't hesitate to try it on a practice room piano
(hmm, I think I'll try that right now) but I'm wondering how many people out
there are successfully using this technique on concert instruments.
Eric
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eric Wolfley
Head Piano Technician
Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music
University of Cincinnati
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Page [mailto:jonpage@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 8:20 AM
To: caut-ptg.org
Subject: Steinway 45 upright
>You might try tapping the bridge pins.
>Ed S.
Yes, tap the bridge pins. Seating the strings on the bridge has
negligible effect. Ever since Roger pointed out tapping the pins,
I've been effecting this false beat reduction technique with good results.
Regards,
Jon Page
>You might try tapping the bridge pins.
>Ed S.
Yes, tap the bridge pins. Seating the strings on the bridge has
negligible effect. Ever since Roger pointed out tapping the pins,
I've been effecting this false beat reduction technique with good results.
Regards,
Jon Page
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:38:30 -0700
From: Horace Greeley <hgreeley@stanford.edu>
To: tcoates@iw.net, College and University Technicians <caut@ptg.org>
Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031010073050.02489240@hgreeley.pobox.stanford.edu>
In-Reply-To: <3F86AE63.9080804@iw.net>
References: <5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu>
<5F2F69090FA7B5428B8C60918047BB76E50914@thorn.byu.edu>
<5.2.0.9.0.20031008195204.00b91cd0@mail.sasktel.net>
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Tim,
At 08:04 AM 10/10/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Does anyone remember the classes Chris Robinson did using a Realtime
>Spectrum Analyzer (borrowed from Kurztweil Company)? I know it was in
>Philadelphia about 12 years ago. Using a mechanism to create an even blow
>and recorded with the analyzer he showed how repinning to proper specs (at
>that time 6 grams) changed dramatically the tone of a particular note.
>
>Pretty eye opening. Previously people speculated about the tonal affects
>of proper flange friction. He showed it scientifically to be true.
Yes - this was one of the best classes ever presented by anyone anyplace.
Chris had several that were all at that same level. 12 years ago was about
at the time when Chris stopped teaching. As with a couple of other
well-known instructors, all of his material was clearly announced as being
under copyright; and a number of us were hoping that this meant an eventual
publication of some very important stuff. So far, that has not been the case.
As Roger noted about his demonstrations of pinning, there were any number
of "slack-jawed" technicians at the end of Chris' classes. Nothing like
meticulous reductive research and careful demonstration to clear the
air. I remember sitting with several prominent factory folks who spent
most of the class time squirming in their chairs...I rather enjoyed it,
actually.
Horace
End of caut Digest, Vol 317, Issue 1
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