Hello, CAUT friends, I am back to computer after a long time off. I'd say that pianists have so much different "touch" depending of their technique , their weight, etc, that it may be difficuly to find a standard. Some expect to meet the inertia of the kets to only manage the last moments before letoff to deal with the tone. Some use the bottom of the key dip as the refernece, so their strike comes from "below" and is mostly weight based. I was told that the pianist use basically 2 forces to play : 1 the weight of arms, and shoulders, that they master from their shoulders and back (sustented) 2 the opening of the anckle (muscular motion) that produce force. When you see a pianist jumping on its chair, he is using muscular force coming from its feet and adding its body weight to the angle opening of its arms. I believe that during the stroke ther is always a match between the key resistance AND inertia, and the force applied. As the action (and key frame/stack)is always in a flex state when played, the differences in tone may well be coming with the differnce ins synchronisation between the bottoming of the key and the hammer hitting the strings. The same as the tone change we get when we modify aftertouch, the pianist use a timing change allowing the action to compress more or less. Seem very far from a velocity only question to me. When it comes to a model to reproduce a piano touch , only questions remain at this stage ! But probably, we have to use a large mass falling less fast than gravity. Greetings. Isaac OLEG Entretien et reparation de pianos. PianoTech 17 rue de Choisy 94400 VITRY sur SEINE FRANCE tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98 fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90 cell: 06 60 42 58 77 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de > Jeff Tanner > Envoye : vendredi 10 octobre 2003 21:42 > A : College and University Technicians > Objet : Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > > > Ed, > On occasion, I notice subtle differences in tone while > tuning, based on > my key striking technique. I don't know that I could describe the > difference in the strike, other than rather than simply > pounding, the > stroke is accelerated through. But I notice a difference > in tone, and > can also detect subtle differences in regulation with the > "accelerated > keystroke" technique, where I don't notice slight differences in > regulation from simply pounding. > > Jeff > > On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 02:18 PM, Ed Sutton wrote: > > > Horace- > > > > Here's a question for you (and anybody else): How would > you imagine > > mechanically, > > a "blow"....or should we say "touch"? that is a > mechanical imitation > > of the way(s) > > a fine performer might move the key? It's easy enough to > drop a half > > pound weight > > 4", but that seems a very crude approximation of a way of > striking a > > key that is > > seldom used in performance. > > > > My point is subtle (and some would say -too-subtle), that > we should > > begin with a > > model of what sensitive performers do, then try to make a > contraption > > that works > > similarly. > > > > Ed Sutton > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Horace Greeley" <hgreeley@stanford.edu> > > To: "College and University Technicians" <caut@ptg.org> > > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 12:51 PM > > Subject: RE: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > > > > > >> > >> Jim, > >> > >> At 08:51 AM 10/10/2003 -0600, you wrote: > >>> List, > >>> > >>> Last week we were given a Realtime Spectrum Analyzer. > We didn't know > >>> exactly what to do with it. Hmmm... Anyone want to suggest some > >>> tests to > >>> run? > >> > >> If Tim remembers Chris' mechanism more clearly than I > do, maybe he > >> can give > >> you some details. The thing that made that series of > demonstrations > >> so > >> phenomenal was the ability to so precisely control the blow. If > >> memory > >> serves, there is a pretty good engineering school at BYU > - maybe some > >> enterprising students could come up with something in > their (copious) > >> free > >> time. > >> > >> I don't think that Chris would present his work as being > the end of > >> the > >> experiments - rather, as places from which to begin. > >> > >> Pinning makes a difference. Now you have precisely the > toy, errrr, > >> tool, > >> to demonstrate that fact. > >> > >> I wonder, given the changes/advancements in computer > technology since > >> Chris > >> did most of his work...perhaps there is a way to more > graphically > >> represent > >> things, real time, as well as getting the numbers out. > The analyzer > >> Chris > >> used was a B&K, with numbered lights for a read > out...very useful; > >> but a > >> little more difficult to immediately apprehend. > >> > >> Horace > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Jim Busby BYU > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: caut-bounces@ptg.org > [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of > >>> Tim Coates > >>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 7:05 AM > >>> To: College and University Technicians > >>> Subject: Re: Steinway "pinning" dilemma > >>> > >>> Does anyone remember the classes Chris Robinson did > using a Realtime > >>> Spectrum Analyzer (borrowed from Kurztweil Company)? I > know it was > >>> in > >>> Philadelphia about 12 years ago. Using a mechanism to > create an even > >>> blow and recorded with the analyzer he showed how > repinning to proper > >>> specs (at that time 6 grams) changed dramatically the tone of a > >>> particular note. > >>> > >>> Pretty eye opening. Previously people speculated about > the tonal > >>> affects of proper flange friction. He showed it > scientifically to be > >>> true. > >>> > >>> Tim Coates > >>> University of South Dakota > >>> University of Sioux Falls > >>> > >>> Fred Sturm wrote: > >>> > >>>>> --On Wednesday, October 8, 2003 7:55 PM -0600 Roger Jolly > >>>>> <roger.j@sasktel.net> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Fred, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 4gms of friction seems to be the > optimum for > >>>>>> tone > >>>>>> production, _as it keeps the knuckle firmly in > contact with the > >>>>> > >>>> balancier_. > >>>> snip > >>>> > >>>>>> Regards Roger. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Roger, > >>>> Looking at this more carefully, I have to disagree > with you as > >>>> to > >>>> the mechanism for the tonal effect of firm pinning. > From the point > >>>> of > >>>> view of the hammer being thrown to the string, I think mass, > >>>> inertia, > >>>> and leverage are plenty to maintain firm contact > between knuckle and > >>>> jack. Where lack of firmness has its effect is in the > wobble that is > >>>> introduced during the throw of the hammer, and even > more so the > >>>> wobble > >>> > >>>> upon impact with the string (ie, what the hammer does > during the > >>>> time > >>>> it remains in contact). So from a purely tonal point > of view, I > >>>> don't > >>>> think friction per se plays a role. > >>>> Where it does have an effect is in the > neuro-muscular response > >>>> of > >>>> the pianist. I am convinced that a fine pianist can feel the > >>>> difference between 2 and 4 grams friction in a > hammershank center, > >>>> in > >>>> terms of what needs to be done to create the final > velocity of the > >>>> hammer, and that 4 grams will be found preferable in > allowing more > >>>> nuanced control. But even more important is evenness > from note to > >>>> note. Better all 2 gram than higglety pigglety with an > average of 4 > >>> grams. > >>>> All of this is more in the realm of mental picturing than > >>>> measurable physics, because it is next to impossible > to separate one > >>>> factor from the others with any reliability. You have to assume > >>>> travel, square hanging of hammers, evenness of felt density and > >>>> elasticity, evenness of shank firmness/sponginess, > etc., etc. But > >>>> when > >>> > >>>> all you do to a fly away action is repin it, the > result is usually > >>>> quite dramatic, at least in my experience. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Fred Sturm > >>>> University of New Mexico > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > _______________________________________________ > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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