[pianotech] [Released] Re: O.T.- H1B Visas?

[Encore Pianos]

I wasn't choosing to define terms that allowed my comparisons.  I read your remarks many times and was honestly tried to ascertain as clearly as possible what you were saying.  Your language elsewhere is in stark, black and white terms would not naturally lead me to the third definition, but rather more towards the second.  I am surprised you meant the third.  If I have misunderstood your meaning, I have done so honestly and without other motivations.

" Yes, that is how the world works. Economies fail or succeed on the strength of the people that are taking part in them.   I didn't make these rules, and I am not making a tally.  American capitalism had staggering success in exploiting the resources of much of the world, often by force, economic or military. American business has been behind more than a few government  failures because they didn't play by our rules, (see the history of South America in the 20th century). This is now changing because we have been borrowing so much that our economic future is going to be jeopardized"

In general terms, no disagreement with the above.

As for Bain, they are only notable in their connection to Romney.  Other than being one of the early offshorers of company laborers, they are one of a long line of many.  

You and I would both agree that we live in a world of emerging economies who are successfully competing with American companies in providing labor.  There are significant economic advantages for these countries where wages remain low in comparison to the American worker.  The disparity is often significant.   The reality for the American worker is that they will be paid less and have fewer benefits; that is already happening.  Since the Great Recession began, the impoverishment of the American worker has accelerated.  

When minimum wage workers hold three jobs and still cannot make ends meet, something is terribly wrong.  When families have two breadwinners working full time and still cannot afford health insurance, something is very wrong.  And so on.

It is not as simple as workers making adjustments to their competitiveness in the world market.  The problem is that this impoverishing of the American worker has become so widespread that it is a boat anchor dragging on the entire economy.  The rich cannot buy enough goods to keep the economic engine running at a healthy pace.  The modern American economy of the last 75 years or so has been strongly tied to a large and economically healthy middle class.  Until the middle class gets healthy again, it does not matter who is President.  I don't think that turning most of America into a third world country is a good solution,  would only benefit the very few, and cause the greatest harm to the larger economy over the long term.  

You are right that the American Public supports this.  And they could choose to not buy these products that are made under such horrendous labor conditions.  Some do, most don't.  

But I have to ask, why won't Apple pay more to its subcontractors and require better pay and working conditions as a term of their contract?  Apple continues to lay Golden Eggs, if they cannot afford to, no one can.   We have to also recognize that too many American corporations have chosen short term profit over long term investment, and have no loyalty to the country and citizens who live in it.  

Will


-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ed Foote
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:31 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] [Released] Re: O.T.- H1B Visas?


Will writes:

Sorry for being such a stickler for language.  I just think one should 
uselanguage meticulously.   If that makes me sleazy in your eyes, so be 
it.  You wrote: "Anybody that wants the ease of government protection has toembrace either socialism or communism".  When you say " has to embrace" that can only mean that you are "marrying them" (to use your term), as yourstatement leaves no room for exceptions.  You are saying the two goinextricably together.  Given your limiting terms, where is 
there room forme to read that statement any other way?	".

I think I see the problem.  You are choosing to define terms that allow your extreme comparisons.  There is more than one definition of embrace, maybe pay particular attention to the third one??

 Embrace" verb trans. ]
hold (someone) closely in one's arms, esp. as a sign of affection : 
intrans. ] the two embraced, holding each other tightly.
• accept or support (a belief, theory, or change) willingly and enthusiastically : much of the population quickly embraced Islam.
• include or contain (something) as a constituent part : his career embraces a number of activities—composing, playing, and acting.


>>   The staggering  success of American capitalism has taken place
over the lasthundred years or so within a regulated economy.  How much or how little mayvary, but that is an undeniable fact.  You said "Pro Business means that the bottom line is paramount.  TheAmerican way is capitalism as measured by profits.  If an Indian firm can dowhat we do for less, that is where the business will go. "  Presumably thehuman 
cost is never tallied on your abacus.   It's economic Darwinism, 
whichis about survival of the fittest, eat or be eaten, etc.  - yes, winners and losers. <<

Yes, that is how the world works. Economies fail or succeed on the 
strength of the people that are taking part in them.   I didn't make 
these rules, and I am not making a tally.  American capitalism had staggering success in exploiting the resources of much of the world, often by force, economic or military. American business has been behind more than a few government  failures because they didn't play by our rules, (see the history of South America in the 20th century). This is now changing because we have been borrowing so much that our economic future is going to be jeopardized.

      Observe Bain Capital's well exposed transfer of a company out of the country, for millions of dollars profit and a bunch of Americans out of work. That is the rule of the road, and all the legislation in the world isn't going to stop it.
    Our problem is that we want the cheapest commodities, and will accept China's vendor financing to buy them, but at the same time, we want to be paid top dollar for our time.  We are causing our economic troubles,and the government is symptomatic, not the other way around.

  "The human cost is a sum total zero, because every lost job here is a gainedjob somewhere else"That statement made me think of Apple, the wealthiest corporation in theworld and it's Chinese factories where the following occurs:"However, the workers assembling iPhones, iPads and other devices oftenlabor in harsh conditions, according to employees inside those plants,worker advocates and documents published by companies themselves.

    And the American public supports this!  How many Americans would be willing to pay $1,800 for an Iphone?  If there were sufficient numbers, we could open that factory here, get it osha compliant and employ a lot of our own citizens. Why is this not happening? Not because of anything I have said, but because so many of us, as Americans, have come to value short-term gratification rather than long-term investment.  I got no use for victimhood.  It isn't them, it's us.
Regards,

Ed Foote RPT
http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html