Hi David: I played with your suggestions this morning where I drill the bottom hole first and chase it with the ½” drill bit. There is little enough difference between the 13/32” hole and the ½” drill that it follows the hole readily and self centers. Plus, the there is little enough difference between the diameter of the ½” shank on the perimeter bolt and the inside diameter of the ½” hole that it makes sure that the bolt is centered. I did it a little different with my samples (outside piano): 1. Center punch hole through plate 2. Drill ¼” deep hole with 7/8” Forstner bit using 90 degree guide 3. Center 13/32” forstner bit in dimple left by other bit and drill a shallow hole to serve as a well centered guide 4. Center 13/32” aircraft drill (12” long) in the hole to drill to full 4 1/8” depth, using 90 degree guide 5. Chase that hole with a ½” aircraft drill (12” long) to a depth of 1 ½”, using 90 degree guide I did several samples this way, and everything ended up well centered and the bolt at 90 degrees. I really appreciate your input, and it will make this work better for me. Will From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 6:28 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation The small tip of the forstner is not relevant here. You place the guide over the existing ½” hole, eyeballing it so that it’s centered. Hold the guide in place and insert the forstner bit into the guide. Now it can’t wander. The first picture is what you would see with the guide in place with no forstner bit. The second picture shows that the forstner bit has been inserted and is ready to start drilling. The guide keeps the forstner centered over the ½” hole. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Encore Pianos Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 3:02 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation Thanks again, David. I appreciate the kindness of your effort. Maybe I am a numby dummy, but I still do not understand how the maple forstner guide will self center into the 9/16” or ½:” hole. Are you merely eyeballing it? The tapered tip of the forstner bit is much smaller than the interior walls of the second hole. So I don’t see how it could guide the tip . I understand how the 3rd hole guides the second hole drill bit, but not how the second hole guides the Forstner bit, even with your maple guide. Forgive me for asking again. Will From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:01 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation So here are the pictures. First one are the implements and showing the bottom of the forstner guide with the sandpaper glued on (it’s about 50 grit). Second picture shows the guide in place. Of course you would be holding this firm with your fingers which you start the drill. The sand paper keeps it from slipping. So start with the smaller drill for the threaded portion of the bolt. The ½” drill will then self center over the smaller hole for wider top of the bolt. Then set the forstner guide centered over the ½” hole and sink the depression to accommodate the top of the bolt. Of course while I don’t do this you can also grind off the plate bosses. Just a comment for the future list, FWIW. I don’t think I would have taken the trouble to post these pictures on the new list. The process is too slow with too many steps. This was shot from my cell phone, emailed to me and then pasted to this reply. Very easy. With the new format there are just enough additional steps and slow load time to discourage me from what otherwise is a simple procedure. I realize this is old news. After reading the Steve Jobs biography the lack of ease of use issues and friendly intuitive interface really stands out. Unless the new list is fixed I’m afraid this type of posting will diminish. For me it will, certainly. There’s still time, of course, to implement a fix, if it matters. No need to comment on this and apologies if this isn’t the proper format for this editorial addendum. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com From: Encore Pianos [mailto:encorepianos at metrocast.net] Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:16 AM To: davidlovepianos at comcast.net; pianotech at ptg.org Subject: RE: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation If you are finding that the ½” shank will center in the 1/2 “ hole, then it must follow that the ½ “ drill bit is finding the center of 13/32” hole very well, since there is such a small margin of error. I am a bit unclear as to what would serve as a centering guide for a forstner bit, as the 9/16” or ½” hole would be much too large for the smaller pilot of the Forstner bit. My 7/8” hole goes to a depth of ¼”. That is about the thickness of the edge of the soundboard panel since I have tapered it So why not simply drill all the way through the panel with the Forstner. It will leave a centering drill mark in the top of the rim. Why not follow that with your suggestion of drilling the 13/32” hole first, followed by the 9/16” (or ½”) hole? Thanks for your answers. Will From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:16 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation Drill the 13/32 first, the 9/16 (I actually use a 1/2) second (use a regular extra long bit not a spade bit), and a 7/8 forstner bit on an extension last. You'll have to make a centering guide for the forstner bit. If you drill the smaller hole first the second hole will self center with a regular bit. I'll send a photo later. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com (sent from bb) _____ From: "Encore Pianos" <encorepianos at metrocast.net> Sender: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:00:56 -0400 To: <pianotech at ptg.org> ReplyTo: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: [pianotech] WNG plate bolt installation Hi: This is addressed to those of you who have been using the Wessell, Nickel, & Gross Perimeter Bolts. I am trying to refine my system for installing them, and I find the recommended WNG installation system leaves much to be desired As you know, we are required to drill 3 holes. WNG recommends drilling the first hole with a 7/8’ spade bit to a depth of about ¼”, the second with a 9/16” spade bit to a depth of about 1 ½”, and the third with a 13/32” aircraft or electricians drill to a depth of about 4 1/8”. I think the spade bit drills are terrible, they chew up the wood and don’t leave a clean hole, and they do not center very well on top of that. Nor have I found that the electricians long drill centers well either. Basically getting all three holes to center consistently is a crap shoot. There has to be a better way. Of course, the rim is in the way. That limits our options considerably as far as what other tools we might use. The drill bits we use must either be long enough to have the drill work above the rim top, or we have drill extensions with the proper bits set in them that will allow the same. Here is the plan of attack I am contemplating: I made a drill guide out of a block of wood that is 3 ½” tall by 7” long x 1 ½” deep. I drilled a 5/8” hole off centered, and same with a 13/32” hole . The block is mounted on two 3” feet that raise the block and allow you to see the drill bits going into the holes, and leaves room for the movement of the bits. The 5/8” hole serves as a guide for a 3/8” shank forstner bit extension that is 10” long x 5/8” in diameter, which I got from Woodcraft.com Most Forstner bits have a 3/8” shank, and that size is hard to come by at a hardware store, not to mention that the Irwin drill extensions we commonly see are a WCPOS and not worth buying. I paid $35.00 for my Wood River extension. What I want to do is use 3 Forstner bit sizes to drill my holes – 7/8” for #1 hole, 9/16” for #2, and 3/8” for the final hole. I can mount all three in my Forstner extension, and use it in my guide to keep everything at 90 degrees. The 3/8” forstner bit is too small for the threads of the WNG bolt, so I will chase that last hole with my 13/32” aircraft drill. The .031 difference in size between the hole and the drill should be small enough to allow it to center well in the hole. Indeed, the 3/8” hole does not need to go fully to the bottom, only deep enough to serve as a sufficient guide to the 13/32 hole that will then take it to full depth. That is how I believe I can get good and consistent results. I would love to hear others input on this. If you have a better way, I am all ears. Will Truitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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