Paul & Wim - IMHO, you guys are omitting one very useful term: "remanufacture". I define recondition and rebuild much like Wim does. One also has to acknowledge that there is a continuum among these three terms. Recondition: fix, clean, shape, adjust everything, using original parts as function allows and minimal parts replacement. Rebuild: replace parts as needed and fix, clean, shape, adjust everything else to return piano to near-new condition. Parts that can commonly wear, but are deemed in very good condition may be re-used (i.e., soundboard, bridges, etc.) and worn parts may be rebuilt. Remanufacture: Gut piano of wearable parts regardless of condition and replace. Typically retained parts will include only parts that do not commonly wear out in 100 years such as: case, plate, action frame, lyre case (may need to be rebuilt - interior lyre components must be rebuilt) and bridge roots. All felt, leather, agraffes and thin wooden parts (soundboard, action parts, etc.) get replaced. Basically, anything that commonly deteriorates within 100 years is replaced or fully rebuilt. And of course, one can go one step further (and I recommend one does!): Redesign and Remanufacture: Now here we do all that is described in remanufacture, but now we take the approach that we want to build a new piano, but realize that because the basic piano hasn't evolved significantly for more than 100 years, it is most efficient to start with a worn-out derelict piano rather than building everything from scratch (case, plate, etc.). Redesign will commonly include a new belly design (redesign soundboard, rib scale and array, strings scale - will mandate complete new soundboard, rim & plate modifications, new bridges, etc.) and redoing action geometry and balancing. And Tom, two thoughts come to mind after reading your post: > I term "rebuilding" as: The entire piano, basically, torn apart, > keeping the rim,plate and basic structure in tact and replacing > everything! That's it! Nothing else should be called a "rebuild"! Be careful with terms like always, and "entire"! If you tell me the entire piano is being "torn apart" and "everything" is being replaced, that would include the soundboard, bridges, new back action, all new action parts, etc., etc. > but will never totally "rebuild" a piano here as it would cost more > than a new one of like name and size. IMHO, there are two reasons to rebuild, remanufacture or redesign & remanufacture a piano where the cost of doing so would exceed the value of a similar new piano model: When the piano is a family heirloom, or for whatever reason THAT is the piano that WILL be in their living room, and the owners want a new or excellent performing piano - then the only choice is to work with what you have. The other reason would be to do it for the musical value, i.e. a finely conducted rebuild, remanufacture or redesign & remanufacture job should yield a piano of exceptional high performance - of such a standard that it is difficult or not possible at all to find a similarly performing piano at a new piano dealer. Or, if one should find a similar brand new factory-manufactured piano, the new one will likely exceed the cost of the rebuild, remanufacture or redesign & remanufacture! I hope you find some value in this....... :-) Terry Farrell Farrell Piano, Inc. www.farrellpiano.com On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:33 PM, tnrwim at aol.com wrote: > > I term "rebuilding" as: The entire piano, basically, torn apart, > keeping the rim,plate and basic structure in tact and replacing > everything! That's it! Nothing else should be called a "rebuild"! > > Paul > > The PTG has "official" definitions of rebuilt and reconditioned > pianos. Council Book of Resolutions, revised June 2006. > > Rebuilt piano is a used piano that has been disassembled, inspected, > and repaired as necessary with replacement of all worn or > deteriorated parts, re-assembled, tested, and approved to at least > the same tolerance as a new piano of like manufacturer. > > Reconditioned piano is a used piano that has been put back in good > condition by cleaning repairing and adjusting for maximum > performance with replacement parts where specifically indicated. > > Wim > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul T Williams <pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu> > To: davidlovepianos <davidlovepianos at comcast.net>; pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org > > > Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:32 pm > Subject: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide/ Now Rebuilding > > OK, I've read quite a bit of this, but I'll chime in. > > > I term "rebuilding" as: The entire piano, basically, torn apart, > keeping the rim,plate and basic structure in tact and replacing > everything! That's it! Nothing else should be called a "rebuild"! > > Action "rebuilding" includes replacing everything including the > keyframe all the way to the top with perhaps the stack frames intact > if they are sound. Probably the sos rod as well. (how often do they > fail?). Then again...original parts? Rebuilt? (OK...a bit too anal) > > The term I have used over the years is "action overhaul" or "total > piano overhaul" as I've never done a complete "rebuild". Probably > very few "rebuilds" have really been done. ( I know there are some, > so Del, Darrel, Norm, and all, just calm...) I will always clarify > with customers that, EXACTLY I am replacing "X" and will explain > what other parts might be ENHANCED to perform better, or almost like > new that really don't need replacing at the time (like wippen, for > conversation). I will explain why the back action or "Damper > action" is a different beast than the action, and so on. I do not > use the word "rebuilding" unless the entire piano needs exactly that. > > I wish you all well with this conversation. I, being uneducated in > total rebuilding, await some responses! I just recondition pianos > and replace certaiin areas that are worn out. I outsource major > jobs like soundboards and bridges, but will never totally "rebuild" > a piano here as it would cost more than a new one of like name and > size. > > > All the best, > Paul Williams RPT > Piano Technician UNL > > > > > > > > > > From: "David Love" <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Date: 10/18/2010 03:26 PM > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide > > > > > The problem with each of us having our own definitions is that it > can lead to confusion and false expectations with customers. How > many times have we encountered "rebuilt" pianos that had a new set > of bass strings and hammers with everything else original followed > by amazement at why our "rebuilding" costs are so much higher than > Joe's. > David Lovewww.davidlovepianos.com > From: William Monroe <bill at a440piano.net> > Sender: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:06:28 -0500 > To: <pianotech at ptg.org> > ReplyTo: pianotech at ptg.org > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide > Yes, this is what I "sell" also. It seems more precise to me to > identify things like hammer shaping, key bushing, pinning, cleaning, > polishing, etc., as reconditioning of the action (making the > components the best they can be, short of replacing them). Then, > once you've finished reconditioning the action, move on to > regulation, then tuning, and then voicing. > > It seems pretty clear that we're pretty much all doing the same > things, it's just a matter of how we classify what we are doing to > ourselves and in how we present it to our clients. > > William R. Monroe > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 2:28 PM, <reggaepass at aol.com> wrote: > > When I sell a "regulating", I'm saying to my customer that I will > make their piano the best that it can be with the existing part > ... and there are some who refer to what we may call "voicing" as > "tone regulation," which, at the end of the day, cannot be > completely isolated from the effects (hopefully positive) of > mechanical regulation. I refer to the operation I sell as > "reconditioning (of existing parts, mostly) and regulation." The > reconditioning part include items such as key bushing, center > pinning and the like. > > Alan Eder > > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Guecia/AlliedPianoCraft <AlliedPianoCraft at hotmail.com> > To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org> > Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 7:06 am > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Regulating, was curve was glide > > .......after all, you can file hammers and clean, polish and voice > without regulating. > > Can you really? What just happened to the letoff after you filed the > hammers? Oh, OK, let me just adjust the letoff. Oh. wait a minute, > now I need to fix the drop. Oh wait, the springs. And so on and so on. > > I guess I have been using the wrong terminology. When I sell a > "regulating", I'm saying to my customer that I will make their piano > the best that it can be with the existing part. Everything working > to the highest level and peak performance. I sell the whole package. > You know the term "Be all that you can be." I can't make a Knabe a > Steinway, but I will make the Knabe perform to its highest level > with the existing parts. I not judging others or saying their way is > wrong, I'm just saying that's the way I do it. > > At this point I guess I need to come up with a better term to > describes what I'm doing and what my customers are getting for their > money. > > Al - > High Point, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech.php/attachments/20101019/68488f42/attachment-0001.htm>
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