Thanks for your replies.
Cheers,
Bruce
Saskatoon, CANADA
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of pianotech-request at ptg.org
Sent: June 23, 2010 5:29 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: pianotech Digest, Vol 20, Issue 86
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: WNG Parts Question (Nicholas Gravagne)
2. Re: SAP in Poland (Chuck Vetter)
3. Re: Adjustable Repetition Spring (David Skolnik)
4. Re: WNG Parts Question (William Truitt)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:29:52 -0700
From: Nicholas Gravagne <ngravagne at gmail.com>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
Message-ID:
<AANLkTin9nG-F9RSvuuGggjnt6H5GNpeJ5DQ7eGHhxmcV at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Hi Will,
Thanks for you input
On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 4:13 PM, William Truitt
<surfdog at metrocast.net>wrote:
> Hi Nick:
>
> I?m mostly through my first regulation on the WNG shanks, whippens,
> capstans, front and balance rail pins, and back checks; along with Weikert
> felt Ronsen hammers. The shanks and whips are the cloth bushed ones,
which
> were sitting on my shelf for a while.
>
> My observations thus far:
>
> Yes, the rep springs are insanely, outrageously strong ? even with this
set
> of Weikert felt hammers, which are on the heavy side.
>
Same here, including the Weikert felt hammers, which weigh in only a tad
lighter than the originals.
> I?m regulating them now but have done about half of them. I?m still
> deciding what I?ll do to get them down consistently. What did you end up
> doing Nick, besides pulling them up to strengthen them or pushing them
down
> to weaken them?
>
Virtually impossible to get the kind of consistency we like to see. I don't
see any special technique that will mitigate this problem. But RE standard
techniques, I had to push down on the spring with the Hart tool a good deal
farther than usual. Tweaking for a tiny bit more of slackness was had by
placing the Hart tool under the top spring and "massaging" upward, taking
care not to kink.
Frustration creeps in when the adjustment is now too loose requiring the
reverse adjustment for more tension. So now you slip the top spring out of
the groove, give it a tiny yank, and once again you are too strong. From the
standpoint of the technician, I would take the screw-adjustment any day than
to have to regulate springs this way.
On a typical wood system, the range or zone of workability is noticeably
larger. The WNG zone of workability is quite narrow. You say you have cloth
bushed parts? Why not try to repin the rep lever to something like twice its
current torque (as measured with the spring disengaged). I think we would
all like to know what you come up with.
> I did have some problems with some of the drop screws being loose in the
> shank flange hole, and the jack window height adjustment screw the same.
> Also, some of the center pins were not centered well in their bushing
> cloth.
>
Had no issues with any of these. My parts are the current run of hard
bushings.
> Also the ends of the shanks varied in diameter at the tips, which
required
> me to take sandpaper and round them down a bit. Some hammer heads were
> quite tight on the shanks. This created problems gluing on the heads.
>
Why not ream the head holes rather than dress down the shank ends? This
worked well for me.
> The shanks are not very stiff torsionally, yet are stiff longitudinally.
>
Yes, but the same is true for wooden shanks (I think). I can't imagine that
relative lack of torsional stiffness should be a problem.
> I ended up doing about the ?average? amount of traveling on the shanks.
>
Less traveling required here.
> ?Burning?of shanks is pretty simple and easy as pie once you start to get
> used to it.
>
Yes.
> I did end up with about half a dozen loose heads, which I CA?ed back on.
I
> did remove one to relocate it, no problema. No clicking issues.
>
No loose heads (that I am aware of), but clicking probably due to hammer
centers.
> Friction was very consistent in the 2 to 4 gram range, just as you
> observed. Whips consistent.
>
Yes.
> I removed them from the rail and cut off the excess shank on the band saw,
> then cleaned them up on the belt sander.
>
Me too; but we need a better way to do this so as not to remove the shanks
from the rail. With wood I have been able to saw off the stubs and disk sand
flat (via pad and electric drill) with all attached to the rail. Had trouble
sawing through the tubes with any ease.
> Blew them out with an air gun. I don?t like the tubed shanks - I think
it
> gives the hammers a hollow sound.
>
Very interesting!
> Did you put in WNG backchecks too, Nick? I would be interested in your
> reaction to them if you did.
>
No. Installed the big and long fat guys from Pianotek (or was it Pacific). I
like these and checking is working out like a dream. Considering the WNG
lightweight parts and low-inertia design (including the capstans) I did not
foresee any weight issues, and in fact had to remove a good deal of lead
from the original keys. A friend tech of mine, with mucho mucho prepping
experience reports many frustrations regulating the WNG backchecks in a new
M&H AA. Anyone else?
> Did you use the back check kit that WNG sells? I did, but I had to
modify
> 3 of the 5 jigs just to be able to use them on this Steinway A.
>
Useful to know.
Thanks Will
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Nicholas Gravagne
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:30 AM
> *To:* pianotech at ptg.org
> *Subject:* [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
>
>
>
> For those of you familiar with the new Wessell, Nickel and Gross (WNG)
> composite action parts:
>
> Having recently installed WNG whippens along with shanks and flanges (w/
> the new hard bushings) I have a couple of questions.
>
> 1) What is your general, overall sense of these parts in terms of
> regulation and performance? For one thing, we are finding the rep springs
> way too strong, requiring more than usual "uncoiling" to obtain correct
> spring strength. The shank flange friction is within WNG specs of 2 to 4
> grams as measured per the WNG site.
>
> 2) Have you encountered clicking sounds, reminiscent of the old S&S Teflon
> bushings? We have on about 8 treble notes. The clicking also might have
been
> loose hammer heads, but these were checked and also reinforced (front and
> back joints) with CA glue, followed by making sure of flange and action
> screw tightness.
>
> Still clicking. Since the flange bushings are hard (as opposed to the
> earlier WNG parts which came with cloth bushings) we cannot easily check /
> repin these centers. Any WNG-specific insight on the source of clicking?
>
> Some quick thoughts:
>
> The action is an old Boston M&H BB that was heavily leaded. The lighter
> weight and lower inertia WNG parts, including the low-mass capstans,
allowed
> for a significant amount of lead removal and / or reduction.
>
> The shanks "burn" easily and surely with a heat gun.
>
> The WNG "action glue" recommended for hammers, etc., works fine as long as
> you don't readjust previously glued hammers (as is often done with hot
> glue). If you see one leaning that was glued a few minutes earlier, better
> to let it dry and then burn it over later.
>
> Very few flanges required travel paper.
>
> Overall flange friction, whips and shanks, is fairly consistent.
>
> Trimming and / or sanding off the hammer shank (tube) stubs after the
> hammer glue has dried creates a black powder, some of which migrates into
> the hollow tube only to escape later on to your nice, clean backchecks.
> Break up the fibrous material in the tubes with a wire and vacuum out, or
> else allow the shanks to hang vertical and shake-'n-tap the powder out.
>
> Am probably forgetting something. Will post more when I know (or remember)
> more.
>
> I know that Bruce Clark is storehouse of knowledge here, but I am also
> interested in varied input and experience from working techs.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Nick Gravagne, RPT
> AST Mechanical Engineering
>
--
Nick Gravagne, RPT
AST Mechanical Engineering
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:11:03 -0500
From: "Chuck Vetter" <soundsgreatmusic at sbcglobal.net>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAP in Poland
Message-ID: <92A51BC838A0457A85C73D4872FE07D8 at ChucksComputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I've seen their work at the NAMM show. Looks good......'cept for the high
gloss polyester finishes on old pianos. Haven't really evaluated anywhere to
get a real idea of how musical the instruments are. Veneers and carving is
really good. The pricing makes sense if you are willing to ship in
quanity...like container loads.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: tnrwim at aol.com
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAP in Poland
It looks like a legit operation. I'm sure they do good work, but the main
question is, unless their rebuilding prices very low, is it worth to send a
piano all the way to Poland?
Wim
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Farrell <mfarrel2 at tampabay.rr.com>
To: pianotech <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, Jun 23, 2010 9:49 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] SAP in Poland
No, I haven't received a letter from them. Why would you not think it is
real, and why would you think it might be a scam - what sort of scam? I
presume there are people who play piano in Poland - perhaps even people who
service and rebuild them.....
Wasn't there a guy who used to play piano - Chopin?
Terry Farrell
On Jun 23, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Bruce Gibson Piano Technician wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Have any of you received a promotion letter from SAP in Poland?
Is this for real, or is this some sort of scam?
Cheers,
Bruce
Saskatoon, CANADA
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:48:28 -0400
From: David Skolnik <davidskolnik at optonline.net>
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Adjustable Repetition Spring
Message-ID: <0L4H00DZLOOEB8I0 at mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Don -
On the one point in your interesting post that I've copied below, I
would relate what I thought to be the (or 'a') problem in those
earlier parts: the arc inscribed (is that what I mean?) by the top of
the jack was not congruent with the profile of the top of the rep
lever. As the jack displaced forward, as in the step of winking
jacks, it would drop below the horizon of the rep lever, causing no
discernable hammer movement. If you were to regulate it to show such
movement, the jack would have trouble re-setting under the
knuckle. The other problem, I think was that the rep lever pinning
was very light, but what, at the time I thought was a lack of
friction relating to the teflon spring adjusting screw was probably,
in fact, what you described in the rest of your post, about the
changing spring-arm length.
David Skolnik
At 10:51 PM 6/22/2010, Don wrote:
>John, ...
>
>
>...I didn't care for the
>touch, and felt that the repetition was not as good unless the springs were
>regulated strong enough to make the hammer rise quite fast. The hammer lift
>was then bothersome during soft playing at times, detectable by the player.
>
>
>Don Mannino
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:28:40 -0400
From: "William Truitt" <surfdog at metrocast.net>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
Message-ID: <003e01cb132b$d063e440$712bacc0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think it's just a different set of problems and, in perspective, no worse
(and probably better) than we see from other manufacturers. I've had
differing problems with every supplier. Sometimes they are great for years
and then things change. The same merry go round that we are all on in the
search for great parts that do what we want them to do. These parts are new
and different, so that can add to our discomfort until we get our head
wrapped around how they perform.
I know Bruce well enough to have fun at his expense when I see him, and I
have at various times spoken with him, Mark Burgett, and Nina Butler about
issues with the parts. What I have consistently found is that they all are
genuinely very interested in getting the feedback from techs, even when it
is not positive. I give great value to the fact that they have an open and
receptive ear, and seem to want to adapt and make needed changes. It is
simply not realistic to expect a new parts manufacturer to achieve
perfection out of the gate, when so many don't after lo these many years.
And these are mass produced parts where changes have to be made around the
cycles of production runs. When do we see the new and improved? Hard to
say.
My own sample is too limited to make any meaningful commentary, so we can
only offer our own reactions to the collective sample, and draw our own
conclusions as best we can from that.
I think that our criticism of others comes a little too easily sometimes (A
general comment, not directed towards you, David).
I stopped using Renner when I began to consistently encounter pinning
problems. You would see pins walking out of the bushings in the winter. As
the parts age, they tend to tighten up to unacceptable levels of friction
due to the abrasiveness of the graphite lubricant. Knuckle leathers sloppy
loose. The pinning issues may be exacerbated by our New England winters. I
know others in my area who have had the same observations. If they have
improved in the 5 years or so since I stopped using them, great.
Should we just dismiss them out of hand, or show a little patience and
understanding for a supplier who is trying to do something new and
different?
Will
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of David Love
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 9:46 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
OK but others describe continuing problems. Unlike you I have used Renner
parts continuously for a long time now and rarely have problems (I can't
remember the last time). Available configurations vary as well so I'm still
wondering, what's the advantage that compensates for some production and
design items that still seem unresolved. I'm all for updated technology and
have no qualms about the next best thing, but only if it is. So, is it?
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of William Truitt
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 3:12 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
Hi David:
I shared my experience with Mark Burgett at WNG a little while ago. My
parts were from an early production run, and he said they were aware of
those issues and had addressed them by making changes in their production
processes. At this point, I am content to take him at his word. Each of
the problems were on a very few of the parts.
As for hammer hanging, they changed the drill bit from 2.7 mm. to 2.8 mm
and went to a very slow setting CA glue. My experience with the glues were
that the looser heads were much easier to control in the gluing process
because of a longer grab time. This change was in response to issues that
techs had reported to them in the field with gluing on hammer heads.
The attraction to me has been twofold: The nylon composite makes them
non-reactive to moisture. Here in the Lakes Region of New Hampshire, you
slam into both extremes of the humidity spectrum, so that's a plus.
Secondly, the modularity of the parts is attractive - the moveable and
differently sized capstan heels, and same for knuckle size and location. If
one is trying to set up an idealized action in rebuilding, the flexibility
is obviously attractive.
Overall, I have found the quality of the parts to be as good or better than
what we are getting from other suppliers. I haven't used Renner parts for
years due to quality issues. Tokiwa and Abel are good but not perfect - no
one is.
>From my experience with the rep springs and the comments of others, it
seems
like the springs remain an issue that they need to further dial in. And the
back check kit needs a lot of improvement to be as flexible in application
as we rebuilders need. Most of my shop action jigs are 4th or 5th
generation designed to be as adjustable as possible, and are much better at
meeting those goals than the WNG kit.
Will
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of David Love
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:32 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
With all these issues, what's the overriding advantage in using them?
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of William Truitt
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:13 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
Hi Nick:
I'm mostly through my first regulation on the WNG shanks, whippens,
capstans, front and balance rail pins, and back checks; along with Weikert
felt Ronsen hammers. The shanks and whips are the cloth bushed ones, which
were sitting on my shelf for a while.
My observations thus far:
Yes, the rep springs are insanely, outrageously strong - even with this set
of Weikert felt hammers, which are on the heavy side. I'm regulating them
now but have done about half of them. I'm still deciding what I'll do to
get them down consistently. What did you end up doing Nick, besides pulling
them up to strengthen them or pushing them down to weaken them?
I did have some problems with some of the drop screws being loose in the
shank flange hole, and the jack window height adjustment screw the same.
Also, some of the center pins were not centered well in their bushing cloth.
Also the ends of the shanks varied in diameter at the tips, which required
me to take sandpaper and round them down a bit. Some hammer heads were
quite tight on the shanks. This created problems gluing on the heads. I
tried it both ways - the Franklin # 65 they were originally recommending,
and a slow set CA glue (not theirs). When the head is tighter on the shank,
the glue starts to grab sooner. The shanks are not very stiff torsionally,
yet are stiff longitudinally.
I ended up doing about the "average" amount of traveling on the shanks.
"Burning"of shanks is pretty simple and easy as pie once you start to get
used to it.
I did end up with about half a dozen loose heads, which I CA'ed back on. I
did remove one to relocate it, no problema. No clicikng issures
But these are early parts so I will chalk these issues up to growing pains
and am reluctant to extrapolate those issues and defects to current
production.
Friction was very consistent in the 2 to 4 gram range, just as you observed.
Whips consistent.
I removed them from the rail and cut off the excess shank on the band saw,
then cleaned them up on the belt sander. Blew them out with an air gun. I
don't like the tubed shanks - I think it gives the hammers a hollow sound
J
Did you put in WNG backchecks too, Nick? I would be interested in your
reaction to them if you did.
Did you use the back check kit that WNG sells? I did, but I had to modify
3 of the 5 jigs just to be able to use them on this Steinway A.
Will Truitt
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Nicholas Gravagne
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:30 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] WNG Parts Question
For those of you familiar with the new Wessell, Nickel and Gross (WNG)
composite action parts:
Having recently installed WNG whippens along with shanks and flanges (w/ the
new hard bushings) I have a couple of questions.
1) What is your general, overall sense of these parts in terms of regulation
and performance? For one thing, we are finding the rep springs way too
strong, requiring more than usual "uncoiling" to obtain correct spring
strength. The shank flange friction is within WNG specs of 2 to 4 grams as
measured per the WNG site.
2) Have you encountered clicking sounds, reminiscent of the old S&S Teflon
bushings? We have on about 8 treble notes. The clicking also might have been
loose hammer heads, but these were checked and also reinforced (front and
back joints) with CA glue, followed by making sure of flange and action
screw tightness.
Still clicking. Since the flange bushings are hard (as opposed to the
earlier WNG parts which came with cloth bushings) we cannot easily check /
repin these centers. Any WNG-specific insight on the source of clicking?
Some quick thoughts:
The action is an old Boston M&H BB that was heavily leaded. The lighter
weight and lower inertia WNG parts, including the low-mass capstans, allowed
for a significant amount of lead removal and / or reduction.
The shanks "burn" easily and surely with a heat gun.
The WNG "action glue" recommended for hammers, etc., works fine as long as
you don't readjust previously glued hammers (as is often done with hot
glue). If you see one leaning that was glued a few minutes earlier, better
to let it dry and then burn it over later.
Very few flanges required travel paper.
Overall flange friction, whips and shanks, is fairly consistent.
Trimming and / or sanding off the hammer shank (tube) stubs after the hammer
glue has dried creates a black powder, some of which migrates into the
hollow tube only to escape later on to your nice, clean backchecks. Break up
the fibrous material in the tubes with a wire and vacuum out, or else allow
the shanks to hang vertical and shake-'n-tap the powder out.
Am probably forgetting something. Will post more when I know (or remember)
more.
I know that Bruce Clark is storehouse of knowledge here, but I am also
interested in varied input and experience from working techs.
Thanks
--
Nick Gravagne, RPT
AST Mechanical Engineering
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