[pianotech] Lyre Damage

[David Love]

I know you're not asking me but I have to admit that I just don't see it in
Steinways or any other pianos for that matter.  Maybe I'm just not noticing
but keyframe bedding is something that I pay attention to.  That being said,
there are pianos that are more prone to changes in the bedding when moved to
a new environment.  Nor does it really make sense in terms of the elastic
properties of wood.  Even if you were to flex the key bed in the process of
moving it what would have to happen for that flex to remain there for any
significant length of time after the stress was removed?  Wood just doesn't
deform like that without some permanent damage and I don't see that type of
stress reaching that level of deformation nor this procedure compromising
the key bed to rim joint.  So I'm not sure.  Personally, I would worry more
about stressing the leg than the lyre depending on the piano, of course.  

David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com


-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of William Truitt
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:23 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lyre Damage

Let me re-ask my question again, Ron.  To what other possible causal agents
could you possibly attribute the upward distortion of the keybed that we so
often see? 

What would qualify as "reasonable evidence" of a direct causal relationship
between setting the piano down on the lyre and keybed warpage?  Both Al and
I have given instances of observation soon enough after such a move that any
other cause is unlikely, and the lyre is the most obvious suspect. Neither
of us are trying to make the leap of saying that all instances of warped
keybeds are caused by setting the piano on the lyre, only that we have a
particular instance where doing so is the only reasonable suspect.  As to
how many instances are caused by setting the piano on the lyre, you and I
share essentially the same incomplete knowledge, regardless of our position.
We rely on anecdotal information and hopefully good logic, because we don't
have much else to go on.

David, I don't doubt that a great many pianos are moved by setting the piano
on the lyre, and no harm comes of it.  Lots of movers do it that way with no
ill effects (at least most of the time).   A Steinway is a substantially
built piano with a thick keybed.  But there are plenty of Crappendorfer
pianos out there where the keybed is as insubstantial as the rest of the
piano, and as cheaply made.  And less tolerant of insult than the better
made instruments.  

As for the side stresses on the treble leg, fair enough.  Perhaps one could
even say it is a question of choose your poison, but you have to choose one
because you have to move the piano.  One way to lessen that stress is to
make sure that you spin the caster wheel on that leg so that the wheel is
facing outward and away from the rim.  Otherwise, at a certain point in
lowering the piano down at the bass end, the wheel will spin on its own to
achieve that position, suddenly and with a little jolt, adding more stress
than needs to be there.

That said, I have never seen a broken treble leg from setting the piano on
its side.  I have seen plenty of broken lyres, though.  The treble leg
usually breaks before that, when I drag the piano across the shag carpeting
sideways without taking any weight off the legs :-0

For me, it is not hard to draw the following conclusion:  IF it is true that
some instances of keybed warpage exist due to setting the piano on the lyre,
whether caused by poor and rough technique, the insubstantiality of the
keybed, or both; AND IF it is true that simple, quick, easy, and safe
methods exist that remove the need to set the piano on the lyre when moving
and risk such damage, THEN wouldn't it be true that said methods would be a
better and safer choice for moving a piano? (Logic 101 - if A is true, and B
is true, it follows that C must be true)

If one were so inclined, it probably would not be too difficult to set up a
long straight edge with a dial guage or digital caliper to take measurements
of deflection, both temporary or permanent, on a number of pianos, just to
see how much the keybed actually changes when doing a move.

Will



 

-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ron Nossaman
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 12:52 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Lyre Damage

David Love wrote:
> Anecdotal information is difficult to draw conclusions from but I have
> countless pianos come through my shop annually and I follow all of them to
> the customer's home--95% Steinway pianos.  They get knocked down with the
> lyre with a heavy blanket underneath to rock the piano over (that's how my
> mover does it) unless it's a Louis or something else where the lyre is
very
> fragile.  When I get to the customer's home I just don't find any problems
> with bedding, regulation or anything else associated with the move.
Changes
> in temperature and humidity from my shop environment to their home
> environment can cause some tuning issues but since they pianos are often
> newly strung it's difficult to separate that out.  Other than that I just
> don't see problems.  

This is exactly my point. Eliminate the one "maybe" instance 
in an entire career, the "I believe", the "surely it must", 
and the outright "Because I say so" assertions with no 
reasonable evidence, and we're left with a whole lot of 
(mostly unobserved) cases where no detrimental change took 
place as a result of using the lyre. I like the lyre brace 
that Andrew posted, and the piano horse, a lot because they 
both are intended to make the move easier and protect the lyre 
from damage at least to some extent. Of all the traffic on 
lists through the years about the horrors of rocking down on 
the lyre, I don't recall a single word of concern from anyone 
about the considerable side stress put on the treble leg when 
the lyre isn't used. Have any of you out there considered the 
PSI load on that leg plate connection with the weight of the 
piano levering the leg out at that angle? Why doesn't that 
concern anyone?

I always wonder why any one of many possible concerns 
arbitrarily becomes *the* one to crusade against.
Ron N