Tyler You would enjoy Helmholtz, On the Sensation of Tone. http://www.amazon.com/Sensations-Physiological-Basis-Theory-Music/dp/1419178938/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237313300&sr=8-1 Also by all means Baldassin "On Pitch" (hard to find) and Virgil Smith's "New Techniques for Superior Aural Tuning" https://www.ptg.org/store/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=116 | || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| jason's cell 425 830 1561 http://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonkanter | || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| || ||| On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Tyler Ferrari <tylerferrari at hotmail.com>wrote: > Ed, > > I can imagine that our perception of sound is something that is not easily > describable. As well, when I hear a 'fundamental', I'm sure it's a summation > of multiple different things occurring in the string. My brain is what > allows me to separate what is occuring in coincidence. > > The first resource that really got me thinking about this was a simple > definition of inharmonicity that a piano tuner gave me. That's when I > started to pay more attention to partials and the effect they have on my > perception of tone quality. > > Up until this point, I have not been using any resources (I just received > Reblitz's book in the mail yesterday though). I bought a few tools from > pianophile that allow me to tune and to do some basic regulation. I think > it's my musical intuition that has lead me this far. I just bought the > tools, sat down with some software and trusted the software completely (at > the beginning), with the exception of tuning unisons by ear. > > Over the last few months, I've learned that there's a lot more to it that > simply controlling the tuning based on some numerical or arbitrary value > that a piece of software has outlined. It's a good starting point, and > probably will generate tunings that are acceptable for the general public, > but I'm really hunting for something else. Every time I sit down and tune my > piano, I am coming up with a tuning that is sufficiently better than the one > that preceded it. This is the cyclic learning process I've been a part of > over the last few months, and I suppose I am beginning to gain some > confidence in my work. > > I had what our city consideres a 'highly skilled tuner' come to my place > today, and I asked him to assess my tuning and my perception of what was > going on. He told me that my tuning is considerably better than many of the > local tuners. I can attribute this to the sheer number of hours I spend > tweaking in, but it's still difficult for me to believe that it is in fact > 'that' much better than a professional with 10 years of experience. He > explained to me the most fundamental thing about piano tuning: the quality > of the tuning is based on how the 'customer' or 'musician' feels about it. > Whether or not 'I' think it is good, if they dislike it, then the tuning is > not satisfying them, and in effect, the tuning is not as 'quality'. > > I have to resort to being humble because I feel like I really know nothing > yet, but I suppose that I am in fact a 'natural'. I would just like to have > a ridiculously in-depth chat with a tuning guru about the art that is > tuning. That would be extremely satisfying, but I think I may be out of luck > in my city. > > I'm not a member of PTG currently, but I think that it would be worthwhile > for me to join as it appears there is a lot of value in the knowledge that > floats around, especially on this mailing list. > > Thanks for your feedback. It is much appreciated. > > -Tyler > > > > ------------------------------ > From: ed440 at mindspring.com > To: pianotech at ptg.org > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:05:35 -0400 > Subject: Re: [pianotech] Some Observations & Questions Regarding Partials > &Inharmonicity > > > Tyler- > > Everything you've written below seems very perceptive and generally > correct. There is no clear concensus about "fundamental beats." There are > several possible explanations. You will eventually discover, for example, > that the lower bass strings have almost no energy at the fundamental. The > "sound" we hear may be a Fourier transform of higher partials, or it may be > a neurological interpretation of complex information. (Obviously everything > we hear is a "neurological interpretation of complex information." The > neurological discoveries of the last 20 years are rapidly becoming common > knowledge, and they will change our way of understanding everything, > including tuning pianos.) > > You seem to be a "natural" at this. Your understanding and perception > exceed many people who have been at it (generally with the help of an ETD) > for a long time. What resources are you using to learn? > > I don't think you need to worry about "whole tone" listening or tuning. > It's obvious you are hearing plenty of ways, and also thinking plenty of > ways. "Whole tone" hearing is not clearly defined, and much of what we are > writing about it is theoretical speculation. I recently heard a tuning by > someone with "partial"hearing, and it is clear by what you write that you > aren't stuck in "partial" hearing. > > Are you a new member of PTG? Through PTG you would gain access to a lot of > material, and a lot of colleagues. > > Ed Sutton > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Tyler Ferrari <tylerferrari at hotmail.com> > *To:* pianotech at ptg.org > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2009 3:24 AM > *Subject:* [pianotech] Some Observations & Questions Regarding Partials > &Inharmonicity > > I have a few questions and observations I wanted to post, and hope to hear > some replies. > > If a string is said to have a lot of inharmonicity, does that mean that all > of its partials are always sharp? As the partial being listened to moves > further away from the fundamental, does it get progressively and > proportionately sharper (as if it were based on a simple multiplication of > constant), or does it get 'exponentially' sharper depending on how much > inharmonicity the string has? I'm finding when listening to certain strings > that certain partials are sharper than others (in a single string). The > octave partial in a single string may be quite close, but the 10ths (or > 17ths) (for example) may be quite sharp. Am I hearing things, or can one > partial be quite sharp compared to another? > > I don't quite know how to word that question, so if someone thinks they > might have an answer if I can better clarify it, let me know. > > Next, > > It appears that most notes lower than C4 have partials that are more > noticeable than others, as well as multiple audible partials. How does one > choose where to split the difference, and choose which partial they are > going to leave flat, or sharp? This becomes much more of an art when > compared to the simple task of eliminating beat rates in the fundamental. > Obtaining certain beat rates when listening to the fundamentals appears to > be child's play compared to the task of choosing which partial to use as the > reference for the quality of the unison, as well as the quality of an > interval being played. Listening to the beat rate between fundamentals when > playing an interval (at least in my case) does not provide me with the best > sound. I usually need to add a slight beat to the interval to remove the > issues with the partials that appear to be beating a rate much greater than > the fundamental. > > It appears that at the cost of introducing a small beat rate into the > fundamental, I can reduce the beat rate of the partials by a much larger > amount. That seems like an advantageous trade-off. I don't believe that it > is a proportional reduction. If I introduce (for example) .5 BPS into an > octave, I may in fact reduce a particular partial's beat rate by 3-5 BPS. > I'm certain that I'm hearing this, and it really makes a world of a > difference when trying to objectively view the 'quality' of an interval. > > I've been reading the discussions and information that people have been > posting regarding 'whole note' or 'whole tone' listening, or tuning. There's > a lot of information and reference to information that I don't understand, > but here is what I have to say about that. > > This may be a bold statement, but this is how it appears to me: > > If strings have inharmonicity, they cannot be properly tuned by listening > to beat rates of fundamental tones alone. Maybe I'm totally dropping the > ball on this one, but do some tuners only focus on the fundamental when > tuning an interval or unison? If so, that REALLY does not seem right to me. > In my case, the quality of the note is based on the fundamental beat rate as > well as partial beat rates, and often sacrificing one or the other to obtain > the best possible quality of tone. > > Eventually, I will learn the special circumstances with my piano well > enough to be able to know how I want to tune certain unisons and intervals > to compensate for the issues with the partials. That's just practice. > > But, I cannot imagine getting the point when I could walk into a customer's > house, hear their piano for the first time and immediately have a good sense > of how I need to tune the piano to best suit its particular situation > regarding partial inharmonicity. A person who is doing that, is someone who > I would consider a master-tuner. Is that the point when you become a Jedi > Master Guru tuner, and you can simply tune a piano by looking at it? haha > > Thanks for reading my rant/journal on my findings and observations. I'm > still a newbie, but I think I'm really getting the hang of things. I > appreciate the criticism and support I'll receive from this message. > > -Tyler > > ------------------------------ > Communicate, update and plan on Windows Live Messenger. Get started today.<http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650731> > > > ------------------------------ > Communicate, update and plan on Windows Live Messenger. 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