Hi Will,
Great post earlier, and thanks for this one. Your experience and advice is
what I expected, but nice to hear from the pros.
Nick Gravagne, RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Member Society Manufacturing Engineers
Voice Mail 928-476-4143
_____
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Will Truitt
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 4:51 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Discussion (was Weickert special felt
update)
Hi Nick:
It may also be that these Blues on the D may need both filing and deep
needling, strike point issues aside for the moment. I have come behind
others work with the Blues where little more was done than hang the
hammers. They had not pre-filed as Renner recommends, and no needle had
touched them. After doing that filing and then deep needling the shoulders,
there was a night and day difference. The hammers got very bright.
It was my long time experience with the Renner Blues that they would
continue to rebound and start shrieking after needling, requiring multiple
sessions to get them to quiet down. A really lovely sound once you got them
there, but a lot of work.
Will Truitt
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Nick Gravagne
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:27 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Hammer Discussion (was Weickert special felt
update)
RicB, David P and David L:
Thanks so much for the excellent replies: Exactly the kind of stuff of was
looking for. I hope others are interested as well.
My own experiences dovetail with David P and David L quite closely. Although
a set of Blues recently hung by another tech on a D, and without any
needling, sounded remarkably flabby and mellow (the board and strings are
fine). I will be looking into this but it may turn out to be strike point
issues. Having hung only 1 set of Blues myself, and that many years ago, I
recall a good deal of shoulder work was required to calm them down before a
nice tone began to develop. And I do recall a more or less constant
attention required at each tuning. I don't believe it is usual for newly
hung Blues to sound quiet. The timbre is nice, but not pushing. Anyone?
I installed a set of Ray's Wurzens on a rebuilt M&H A last year and was very
pleased with the tone and how little work I had to do - some opening up at
the shoulders, and a bit of top hardening with plastic pellets/acetone in
the highest notes.
Nick
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of David Love
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 3:36 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update
I use both depending on the goal which for me is the targeted tone with the
least amount of manipulation. Targets do vary, however, and the consistency
of the Renner Blue is considerably different from the current Ronsen
Weickert. The Renner blue needs substantial shoulder needling progressing
to very near the crown to open up the hammer. Some light crown needling is
also beneficial and gives a more lustrous tone. The Weickert hammers that I
have used are more open to begin with, need a slight building up in the
treble (and maybe the low bass) but develop very nicely with a bit of
playing. They are not prone to developing a harshness which the Renner Blue
can in even moderate use situations. The Weickert hammers are more stable
but you will need to allow them to develop somewhat. The Weickerts do not
have that super solid feel at the bottom of a forte stroke so if you really
need the piano to power up it may not be right-at least the sets that I've
used. For a concert piano in a fairly large venue with a standard
soundboard assembly I might opt for something a bit firmer-though Pianotek's
own designed Abel felt hammer is also a good interim hammer with more power
than the Weickert but less manipulation required than the Premium Blue.
As you mention it depends on the goal and the tech's preferred way of
working. I put a set of premium blues on a MH BB recently and though there
was quite a bit of work to get the voice I wanted (and the customer too) the
end result was fine but I do have concerns about development-that's always
been my issue with them and with some of the Abel hammers as well. In
retrospect, I think I could have gotten there much more easily with a set of
Weickerts but they weren't yet available at the time and I had a set of
premium blues in the shop.
All that being said there is definitely a difference between hammers pressed
with and without heat. The Weickerts, which are relatively cold pressed,
maintain a certain springy liveliness (not to be confused with brightness)
that you have to work very hard to get with hot pressed hammers. The
ability to recapture that over time remains fairly stable with a cold
pressed hammer, it dissipates more rapidly with a hot pressed hammer, at
least in my view. The cold pressed hammer must be given time to develop to
really get right so some patience on the part of the player is required.
The Weickerts, however, need much less time than other hammers made with
different felt that Ray at Ronsen has produced. If you need a concert piano
up and running at full speed right away then you will need to put the
Weickerts on the pounding machine prior to delivery. The Renners will be
there from the start-though you may have more work keeping them there.
All in all, I prefer a hammer that develops to its full capacity over time
rather than one in which you are constantly fighting development issues. I
think that's the traditional style of hammer philosophy and making and in
that case I think they had it right.
David Love
www.davidlovepianos.com
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Nick Gravagne
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 1:14 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update
Hi Dale,
Pursuant to my phone calls to you and these recent posts, the Weickert felts
appear to be an excellent new choice; and I look forward to using them ASAP.
I have been wondering, however, where are those Renner Blue advocates out
there, of which there must be many. I know of several Renner-only proponents
(and first-rate technicians to boot), but I do not think they subscribe to
this list. I don't wish to start a mine-is-better-than-yours debate; but it
seems that a professional discussion of the relative experiences and
anecdotal input on these matters along with specific voicing techniques
would be worthwhile. Is a consensus of thought developing out there?
Many experienced techs are loathe to use S&S hammers, either in the past or
present, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they feel they
cannot get the bite they are looking for. They opt for Renner or other or
even Hamburg Steinway as they prefer to work the hammer down rather than up.
Other fine techs take the opposite view by only using S&S as they feel they
can't get the warmth or stability they are looking for. You and others have
explained quite well the merits of the new Weickerts and I am very
appreciative of that.
I don't know if this post will catch on, and I doubt that any of us out here
would be interested in a free for all; that is why my idea is to consider
the opinions of experienced techs when it comes time to choose hammers for
performance venue instruments such as Bs and Ds. We all know that such
pianos need to bite as well as carry, and that most performers are going to
voice frustration if this isn't the case.
Having said this, I think it reasonable to assume the standard axioms such
as: It all depends on the needs of the performer; Let the piano tell you
what it needs; We don't all have the same sense of tone;
you_fill_in_the_blanks.
I would hope for professional replies, though I am aware that in the world
of Lists and Groups many believe that a no-holds-barred approach is the most
democratic, informative and should be considered the norm.
At any rate, I am interested in such an airing, and I believe that such
discussions have gone on in the past. Should this idea become a thread, the
Subject line may need revising.
Thanks again to you and Ray for all the R&D work and its value to the trade.
Respectfully,
Nick Gravagne, RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Member Society Manufacturing Engineers
Voice Mail 928-476-4143
_____
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of erwinspiano at aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:47 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl
Subject: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update
Hi Andre and all
Ray & I are still learning & refining the Ronsen process with this felt.
Ray & I have received the latest iterations of this felt & will have product
& piano at the convention in Burbank
Any way the good news is
I sent out a 1971 Steinway D rebuild to Sunnyvale Ca. on Sat with a set of
Weickert special concert density (concert density...my term) hammers that is
tonally outside of the box. It was not a new board, but, It was fantastic.
It is very much like the first test set I installed on the Kawai kg-3 last
summer & was curious about the density of those first hammer sets/sheets. It
works very well with Rays pressing method.
On the Sunnyvale D... the initial sound was slightly dark in the bass &
low tenor but absolutely huge. In My Opinion, For New York Ds to sound like
N.Y. Ds' they require a firm crown so I put about 4 to 6 drops of very weak
key top solution on the crown of the bass hammers & one drop on each string
cut from not 21 to note 35. That's it. Nothing but the initial filing on
notes 35 thru 88. Break in solution if you will. It was so easy I felt
guilty
Yes, the hammers would have played in, but the time it takes to do this
is not always available for D's that are going right into in concert
situations. However, this is absolutely a great choice of felt & an
extremely versatile hammer for this application.
This Steinway D had more color than a box of color crayons. Pure tonal
power,Lush,gorgeous,clear,sustain,projection, definition. I'm telling you,
Wurzen is on the right track.
This piano ( the D) was allegedly in the Custody of Van Cliburn at one
time. Probably one of many. You Know? The client is a virtuoso & can really
play. She was thrilled. Truly a fantastic sound.The voicing protocol was so
simple it should be a secret. Never laid a needle in it except to test
density. The really fussy work in my practice is prepping the set for an
extremely even hammer weight curve and a beautifully shaped hammer. This is
where the time is spent when doing custom action balancing & concert level
voicing but the voicing time in this case was very little. Truly amazing!
This felt is so resilient & bounces off the string so willingly that the
voicing stability & longevity should be fantastic & simple to maintain. The
felt is very promising...understament!
Dale Erwin
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_____
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