OK, Nick, I'll bite. I have hung many Renner Blues in the past and have several pianos in my care at the school with these fine hammers. There is nothing that I dislike about them. I have found that I just like the Wurzen Ronsen hammers a little better. Sometimes they take a little voicing up but not very much and then they stay remarkably stable even in hard use pianos. The Renner Blues seem to brighten up more quickly with heavy use and I don't know why. I certainly use a lot of Renner action parts.
Generally I too prefer to voice down a little rather than go the other direction for the simple reason that after you do dope the hammers you have to voice down to even out the sound. One job becomes two.
In the recent Wieckert felt experiment, I did dope all of the hammers after they were hung and that without even asking the professor about it. With the one treatment they were still very subdued even though it's a B in a relatively small studio. The professor has since asked me to bring them up (which I did) and I suspect that in the next week or so I'll have to apply a third application. I do trust that after I get them where they should be, that they will be very stable like their Wurzen brothers.
The only NY Steinway hammers we have are on 5 relatively new pianos (all since 1999). One of those is about due for new hammers and I can't imagine how I could be convinced to replace them with NY hammers. There are now far too many other good choices out there from Ronsen, Renner, Able, Issac......
Hammer choices have to be at the top of our list for importance in making the sound the client wants. The only other item with this importance is the sounding board assembly and that's not something we can change in a day.
dave
David M. Porritt, RPT
dporritt at smu.edu<mailto:dporritt at smu.edu>
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Nick Gravagne
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 3:14 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update
Hi Dale,
Pursuant to my phone calls to you and these recent posts, the Weickert felts appear to be an excellent new choice; and I look forward to using them ASAP.
I have been wondering, however, where are those Renner Blue advocates out there, of which there must be many. I know of several Renner-only proponents (and first-rate technicians to boot), but I do not think they subscribe to this list. I don't wish to start a mine-is-better-than-yours debate; but it seems that a professional discussion of the relative experiences and anecdotal input on these matters along with specific voicing techniques would be worthwhile. Is a consensus of thought developing out there?
Many experienced techs are loathe to use S&S hammers, either in the past or present, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they feel they cannot get the bite they are looking for. They opt for Renner or other or even Hamburg Steinway as they prefer to work the hammer down rather than up. Other fine techs take the opposite view by only using S&S as they feel they can't get the warmth or stability they are looking for. You and others have explained quite well the merits of the new Weickerts and I am very appreciative of that.
I don't know if this post will catch on, and I doubt that any of us out here would be interested in a free for all; that is why my idea is to consider the opinions of experienced techs when it comes time to choose hammers for performance venue instruments such as Bs and Ds. We all know that such pianos need to bite as well as carry, and that most performers are going to voice frustration if this isn't the case.
Having said this, I think it reasonable to assume the standard axioms such as: It all depends on the needs of the performer; Let the piano tell you what it needs; We don't all have the same sense of tone; you_fill_in_the_blanks.
I would hope for professional replies, though I am aware that in the world of Lists and Groups many believe that a no-holds-barred approach is the most democratic, informative and should be considered the norm.
At any rate, I am interested in such an airing, and I believe that such discussions have gone on in the past. Should this idea become a thread, the Subject line may need revising.
Thanks again to you and Ray for all the R&D work and its value to the trade.
Respectfully,
Nick Gravagne, RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Member Society Manufacturing Engineers
Voice Mail 928-476-4143
________________________________
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:47 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org; oorebeek at planet.nl
Subject: [pianotech] Weickert special felt update
Hi Andre and all
Ray & I are still learning & refining the Ronsen process with this felt. Ray & I have received the latest iterations of this felt & will have product & piano at the convention in Burbank
Any way the good news is
I sent out a 1971 Steinway D rebuild to Sunnyvale Ca. on Sat with a set of Weickert special concert density (concert density...my term) hammers that is tonally outside of the box. It was not a new board, but, It was fantastic. It is very much like the first test set I installed on the Kawai kg-3 last summer & was curious about the density of those first hammer sets/sheets. It works very well with Rays pressing method.
On the Sunnyvale D... the initial sound was slightly dark in the bass & low tenor but absolutely huge. In My Opinion, For New York Ds to sound like N.Y. Ds' they require a firm crown so I put about 4 to 6 drops of very weak key top solution on the crown of the bass hammers & one drop on each string cut from not 21 to note 35. That's it. Nothing but the initial filing on notes 35 thru 88. Break in solution if you will. It was so easy I felt guilty
Yes, the hammers would have played in, but the time it takes to do this is not always available for D's that are going right into in concert situations. However, this is absolutely a great choice of felt & an extremely versatile hammer for this application.
This Steinway D had more color than a box of color crayons. Pure tonal power,Lush,gorgeous,clear,sustain,projection, definition. I'm telling you, Wurzen is on the right track.
This piano ( the D) was allegedly in the Custody of Van Cliburn at one time. Probably one of many. You Know? The client is a virtuoso & can really play. She was thrilled. Truly a fantastic sound.The voicing protocol was so simple it should be a secret. Never laid a needle in it except to test density. The really fussy work in my practice is prepping the set for an extremely even hammer weight curve and a beautifully shaped hammer. This is where the time is spent when doing custom action balancing & concert level voicing but the voicing time in this case was very little. Truly amazing!
This felt is so resilient & bounces off the string so willingly that the voicing stability & longevity should be fantastic & simple to maintain. The felt is very promising...understament!
Dale Erwin
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