Brian-
Thank you!
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Wilson
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster
Hello List
I thought we "called a ceasefire" .
Question 1. There have been several "notes" from the original tuning course from the Sydney Conservatorium of Music Tuning Course. The course commenced around 1973 with the original lecturer being Mr Yogi Suzuki from Yamaha Japan. (I am not 100% on all these details, I was born 1964) After Mr Suzuki, Australian instructors tutored the course. First Wayne Stuart (after 1 year in Yamaha Japan, and then in factories around Europe) There have been other lecturers, two whom I can confirm as Ara Vartoukian and Trevor Foulcher. (Ron Overs could provide more info) I think the first books were from Japan,. My first book was co authored by Trevor Foulcher. Can't remember the other writer. I started my apprenticeship late 1984, and by then the Sydney course had closed, and another course started at "Preston College" in Melbourne, first lectured by Wayne Stuart. I have lost the book from Foulcher, however Wayne Stuart published a book "Piano Technology - An Introduction" published 1993. To be honest, it is just all the notes from the Sydney course condensed into one book. Don't tell Wayne Stuart this..couldn't put up with him !!
I have another book published by Yamaha Japan. I let a colleague borrow it approx 5 years ago, and haven't seen it since. It is nearly word for word with Stuart. BTW I have a copy of "The PTG Tuning Examination : A Source Book" published 1993.
Best description of my book : very condensed versions of your PTG Book. Simple facts, however the notes are not really that help for "self tuition". That is also why the tuning exams at these colleges were both aural and by electronic measurement followed by writing these measurements on to a sheet, then on graph paper. After learning these processes, we all found out that the beat rates supplied by Yamaha were "perfect" for Yamaha pianos, and then by taking advice from these rates we could apply them to other pianos. Fortunately, I was tuning other brands, so the process was a little easier than colleagues who attended the course, and found the change to other pianos difficult.
Question 2 : Difficult question, as I just do what I do, just the same as you. I will read the PTG book to remind myself of your terminology. But believe me, we probably do the same. Please accept my humour (humor)of this industry: "We all agree when it is wrong, but don't agree when it is right". Most won't agree with this, but it is my sardonic view of the industry. To quickly describe the mid treble, I will quote Stuart. "The octave must be placed on the positive side of zero.. beatless. The position of the octave is checked by sounding the 4th & 5th own from the octave being tuned. The 4th should beat faster than the 5th. If the 4th beats faster than the 5th, the octave is on the positive". You all agree with this. Check by increasing speed in 3rds & 6ths (as per PTG) "From A49 use 10th in conjunction with 4th & 5th for accuracy. At A61 the 4th & 5th are not longer audible so 17th & double octave is used. The interval rates must increase as the frequency rises. >From 69-88 it is necessary to utilise the double & triple octave"
I know this can be described as vague.
My tuning process at the moment (on large piano) is to strip mute F3 to F4. perform temperament then unisons. Re check temperament with open strings & adjust where necessary. Tune towards bass & listen to progress of 3rds 6ths, then 10ths 17ths etc. I give myself little targets. I describe them as landmarks. From F4 I tune octave and then listen to C# F3 3rd compared to C#3 to F4 10th. Then 10ths progressing in speed, always checking what has been previously tuned. After 10ths becoming too fast, 17ths. There are always other intervals as well, depending what is the easiest to listen to on that particular piano. I must add that I use the same tests.e;g if I am using 10ths, I will keep using 10ths, and not change the intervals by checking by using a 12th. Whatever I am using I want to be consistent. Small pianos are difficult with large intervals.. I will find the interval easiest to use.
The interesting part of our work is that we all tune slightly different.
I hope this explains this a little better. To add fuel to the debate, there are technicians that say the Yamaha method is wrong as well as others that say that PTG publications are wrong. I don't want to add to that debate...
I have noticed the Aussies on this list.. Ron O, Scott J, David Lawson, and Kerry Cooper. Are there any more hiding in the closet?
Must stop this. Recording tomorrow, Sunday (choir) then next week with 2 Mozart Concerti, then concerts of 2 nights of Beethoven 4th Concerto. Also my wife is travelling O/S for business , so I have all that work plus the most important job of being Dad.
Any more questions, I will answer them in a week or so.
Kind regards
Brian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ed Sutton
Sent: Thursday, 12 February 2009 12:52 AM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster
Brian-
Could you tell us more about this "book from the Sydney course?"
How do you describe octave tuning without using 2:1, 4:2, etc.?
I am a great believer in the "more than one way to look at it" approach to tuning, and everything.
Ed Sutton
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Wilson
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:20 AM
Subject: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster
Jeff
First, sorry for the late reply. My mind has been trying to understand the bushfire crisis in the State of Victoria, Australia I have been reading the newspapers and watching television at every possible moment. I have also been trying to explain to my four year old what is on the TV.
Thank you for your work that you posted to this list. I asked you for those beat rates only to get an agreement or a disagreement with my calculations. Don't worry about them..waste of your time.
Second paragraph. I know the twelfth root of two as 1.0594631. All the other information other than 3rds being 14 cents wide is new to me, so thank you for providing more "food for thought"
Third paragraph. Sorry I didn't mention about short or poor quality pianos.. I know what you mean. We are lucky here in Australia that we don't have many spinet pianos.(the list frightens me when you discuss these ) I am also lucky that the majority of my work is on fairly decent pianos.
Fourth paragraph.. I woke up in the middle of Sunday night with the realisation of understanding my question. As I explained, I don't use 4ths up there anyway. I use the same intervals as other writers have posted.
I have not heard of the article by Robert W Young. In an earlier post I mentioned that we do not use the terminology of 2:1 4:2 8:4 octaves etc. I have read PTG Journal articles on tuning and it requires a bit of thought to work it out. Seems like second nature to you. Instead of learning those described ways of octave tuning, I have been taught a different "language" I will endeavour to learn more about your "language" so that I won't look like a dunce when I travel to USA. (hopefully soon) It has been an interesting few days and sometimes this list didn't know what planet I was from. I thought the list was going to ban me!., I have learnt so much from you. Thank you everyone.
I am very fortunate to start my training in this industry when the mentioned information (Yamaha style teaching at Sydney Conservatorium) was available. The generation of tuners before me were not privy to this information. My first lessons in tuning were "until it sounds right". I argued that how can it sound right when I have no idea! I obtained a copy of the book from the Sydney course and I was told to "learn this". I was a real pain in the@#$% as I wanted to count beats and I asked questions that most techs couldn't answer. I would not been able to comprehend the process of tuning without obtaining the theory. My learning process is to ask before I act.
Thanks to all for the experience. I'll try to be quite for a while. BTW Those guys who are into rebuilding, soundboards, moving agraffes, etc WOW. I think Ron Nossaman was in Australia a few years ago speaking at our APTTA Convention.. was it Adelaide 2004?
I wish William to accuse me of shouting.. "Shouting" is an Australian term for buying someone a drink.
Kind regards
Brian Wilson
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