If your 4ths are beating faster as you proceed up the piano, you are after a very stretched tuning. How this doesn't translate into wild octaves, I dont' know. Not what I do...seems like you would have 5ths beating on the the wide side...so where is this CD you are talking about? David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 Original message From: "Brian Wilson" To: Received: 2/7/2009 8:58:15 PM Subject: Re: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster? Looks like I have found the problem we all speak English, however we have different interpretations of the written word or terminology. The word “Stretch” would be defined as your wider octaves. Through the Yamaha tuning school ideas (BTW Kawai is the same) they teach that octaves are “stretched” or is it your terminology that you tune wider octaves. Many of the articles I have read in the PTG Journal is about “tuning 4:2 , 6:3, 4:1 octaves”. Please understand that that is not the teaching method of the technician in Australia. Yamaha and Kawai don’t discuss it, so may I assume it is not taught in Japan. Nor did I hear it discussed in Germany or by friends in England. Back to the technician who wanted more “Stretch” He spoke little English, and I spoke little of his language however it was a fantastic tuning lesson. After listening to my tuning, he refined my temperament, and then said better, and then said more stretch. I asked via dictionary how, and handed him my tuning hammer, lever, crank, or whatever you call the tool. The fourths were slightly sharpened from F4, and they increased in speed. >From A#4 he wanted 10ths and from A5 he wanted 17ths. I started to listen to the 4th, but he waved his hand as if to dismiss me. Played a 10th and said “this” I have also listened to a piano tuned by 3rds 6ths 10ths etc and the octaves were checked by a compressed 5th. He told me that there was no need to listen to the 4th, all he needed were the faster intervals. I checked the tuning afterwards by listening to intervals, and by playing it. I then got a cybertuner and “graphed” his tuning. I also tried the tuning with different partials on the cybertuner, and to this day it is the best and most even tuning I have ever come across. I have never told him my thoughts, and if he knew I owned a PRCT he would recommend that I get replaced. (another subject and his opinion) And I forgot no temperament strip. He also used the word “Stretch” and also uses a slightly “larger stretch” for concerto work.. May I add we are talking very minute changes i.e very small. Both these concert technicians are highly regarded by international touring pianists I have asked them.. BTW Reblitz uses octave stretch as a terminology and also check the latest Steinway manual. So we can all agree that there are many tuning ideas I use my method because that was what I was taught and that is what I know. (I call in brainwashing) Your method works for you and that is what you are taught.. As I posted earlier, there are many ways to skin a cat. Back to my CD I can tell what piano is used as it is not that hard, but the octaves are widened considerably. Towards the end there is a single octave played and it is tuned quite sharp, in fact beating.. and it cuts through the orchestra with ease. It is not voicing, it is pitch. I have 3cd’s of this concerto and have heard it live about 10 times, and my cd is the best playing and best piano. Have I explained this or is it “lost in translation” Regards Brian From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 12:41 PM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster? Define "stretch". Is this something that you do above and beyond the natural tuned inharmonic result? Or are you talking about wider octaves? By how much? The word "stretch", particularly for new tuners, can be misleading and causes a lot of strange and creative intervalic phenomena. Paul In a message dated 2/7/2009 8:24:22 P.M. Central Standard Time, pianocare2 at bigpond.com writes: Sounds really good.... thanks Can you also work out the theoretical speed of 3rd, 10th, 17th etc. something like C4 and E4. I have answers with my calculations, but it may seem that your answers may be slightly different. Interesting... conflicting published versions.. now I want to burn those books! So I have another question... my "stretch" as been described as conservative by a concert tech, and he asked me for "more stretch" and unfortunately the answer was not in English, but he showed me more stretch from F4.I listen to many recordings and I have to tell you that my favourite CD was recorded at Carnegie Hall unfortunately no name of pianist, but the stretch is huge... and it sounds fantastic. -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Deutschle Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 11:24 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] Do fourths beat faster? Brian: Apparently there have been articles written to prove that they do beat at the same rate. But none of the posters have explained the theoretical concept. I am working out the math for a 4 octave spread with a fourth and a fifth in each octave for 2:1, 4:2 and 8:4 octaves types using an iH constant of 0.1 at C3 that doubles every 8 semi-tones. This is a sample piano's iH from the well known "Inharmonicity of Plain Wire Piano Strings" article by Robert W. Young. I will post the results in a day or three. On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Brian Wilson <pianocare2 at bigpond.com> wrote: > I too did not take offence. I was disappointed that I could post my response > to the debate with some actual data, but not get an explanation to say that > I am wrong. > I have only stated what is written in text books to back up my argument. BTW > one was written by Reblitz and the other here in Australia by Wayne Stuart > which was all the Yamaha books put into one. Can't find my official Yamaha > book. If these books are incorrect, I will be having a book burning party. > Do I "count" fourths whilst tuning. No. I use them as well as other > intervals to achieve what I was taught and examined on. > My understanding of achieving E T is that lets say my temperament F3 to F4 > is that the first 4th F to A# beats just under 1 beat per second and the > last 4th beats just over 1 beat per second. I posted yesterday that we all > just say that all 4ths are 1bps. Ron N has stated "close enough to appear > that way" and David has stated they 4ths beat at the "same rolling beat" > Using the same equations as I presented, to use the same intervals one > octave higher will give me 2 beats per second (A4 D5) and then another > octave higher is 4 beats per second.(A5 D6)( Yes theory ) Do I concentrate > on the 4th in the 5 & 6th octaves. No I listen to octaves, to the 5th and > temper with a good progression of 10ths and 17ths like you and probably all > others do. > Now back to my example temperament. If I presented a piano for (my) > examination with the 4ths beating the same.. it will fail.. been there done > that.. and that is only the temperament. The 4ths are "poco a poco > accelerando" but not too much! If the 4ths gradually increase in speed from > my stated F3 F4, what happens after F4. Do they stay the same, decrease or > increase, and why? Do they seem to be the same speed? > > If there is disagreement with my explanation of the temperament, please > explain why and I will gladly harass those lecturers and technicians who > have given me such a hard time over the years. I will fire up the BBQ and > get some beer out of the fridge and have that book burning party. > Brian -- Regards, Jeff Deutschle Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. Thank You. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.16/1929 - Release Date: 4/02/2009 4:35 PM Great Deals on Dell Laptops. 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