As I said...shoot into a mirror
David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA 94044
Original message
From: "Steve Brooks"
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Received: 7/4/2008 9:49:13 PM
Subject: Re: Knowing list members
Are you referring to the hand movement not matching anything remotely close to the music?
Tom Servinsky
It seemed to me like the image was reversed. The keyboard looked backwards, you know ... like the bass was on the right side of the keyboard and the treble on the left. Can you get digital images reversed like that or am I hallucinating? It seems kind of surreal.
Steve Brooks
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Today's Topics:
1. White Oil [was Customising a piano] (John Delacour)
2. Re: Customising a piano (johndelmore at suddenlink.net)
3. Re: Knowing list members (johndelmore at suddenlink.net)
4. Re: Knowing list members (johndelmore at suddenlink.net)
5. Ballistol and other lubricants (Gregor _)
6. Re: Customer Satisfaction (Matthew Todd)
7. Re: Ballistol and other lubricants (Kent Swafford)
8. Re: Ballistol and other lubricants (Tom Servinsky)
9. Re: Knowing list members (Tom Servinsky)
10. RE: Customizing a piano (Bruce Browning)
11. RE: Ballistol and other lubricants (Gregor _)
Subject: White Oil [was Customising a piano]
From: John Delacour <JD at Pianomaker.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:49:24 +0100
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At 19:58 -0700 3/7/08, somebody wrote:
...One of its selling points is that it is not petro-chemical based, and uses biodegradable ingredients...
This comes from the Wikipedia article and this contains a link to a quite nonsensical article on White Oil ("White oil is a home made insecticide spray"!!). One needs to read Wikipedia with great care.
I use White Oil daily as a lubricant in French polishing, as do most French polishers. I buy it by the gallon, very cheap. Some years ago I asked my supplier what this oil was and all he could tell me was that it is a _mineral_ oil. French polishers in France call it vaseline oil, and vaseline is petroleum based. If it is a mineral oil, whether got from coal or oil, then it is most certainly "petro-chemical".
You can also buy white oil for burning in little decorative lamps and it is also almost certainly the pricipal ingredient in Johnson's baby oil and a host of other pharmaceutical products.
If Ballistol is mainly "pharmaceutical White oil: CAS RN 8042-47-5", then I guess it is very little else and can therefore be got for fractions of pennies rather than dollars. There have always been huge profits to be made from putting valueless liquids into small containers and pretending they're something special.
I doubt very much whether any harm would be done by wiping centre pins with white oil when re-centring would do any harm, but I'm not about to begin doing so.
JD
Subject: Re: Customising a piano
From: <johndelmore at suddenlink.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 0:27:19 -0500
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 2
Lord, you old coots need to quit pickin' on that girl!! It's just a shame that you've forgotten 95% of what you knew when you were twenty!!
Myself, I'm a babe in the woods at 43, and only been muckin' around with pianos for three or four years, and Bosie ain't taught me a thing!!
But, I have been a chemist for twenty years. And the Hoppe's oil is very likely made practically in my backyard, at Calumet. In my CHEMICALLY professional opinion, it's not nearly as bad as using WD-40 or 'three-in-one' or most of the other horrid things that people try. But it's not optimal. It will break down, but so will everything else (teflon, perhaps, excluded...unless you're playing that piano on Venus). The biggest problem I see from the MSDS is that it has added fragrances. That's evil. The best solution, from a chemical standpoint, and IMHO (sorry for the 'text-speak'...LOL...aw, heck, I did it again!!) for the piano, is to size the bushings properly with heat, water and methanol (all of which GO AWAY) and whatever reaming is necessary.
Alicia, you're obviously a strong, talented and opinionated woman. Nothing wrong with that. You'll likely put some "artists" in their place some day. But I've seen the "old greybeards" learn stuff on this list...
The key word is "professional".
A Happy Fourth: life, liberty and happiness to you all, and those you love!!
John
Subject: Re: Knowing list members
From: <johndelmore at suddenlink.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 0:41:28 -0500
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 3
Well, I don't know if she tuned the piano or not (did anybody else hear weird 'recording' issues?), but I do know that she has bigger cojones than me to put THAT piece out to the world. I liked the spirit.
John Delmore
---- pianolady50 at peoplepc.com wrote:
This was brought to my attention and does explain a lot.
www.aliciaevans.9k.com
Best to all,
Debbie Legg
Subject: Re: Knowing list members
From: <johndelmore at suddenlink.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 0:52:56 -0500
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 4
Well, I don't know if she tuned the piano or not (did anybody else hear weird 'recording' issues?), but I do know that she has bigger cojones than me to put THAT piece out to the world. I liked the spirit.
John Delmore
---- pianolady50 at peoplepc.com wrote:
This was brought to my attention and does explain a lot.
www.aliciaevans.9k.com
Best to all,
Debbie Legg
Subject: Ballistol and other lubricants
From: Gregor _ <karlkaputt at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:39:52 +0200
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 5
Using Ballistol as lubricant for action center pins is okay. I have no idea about its ingredients but the reason why nearly all German piano techs use it since generations is that it does not gum after a while. Most of my German collegues use a tool like this for applying only one drop of it:
http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/753674/TropfenoelerAluminium.html?suchbegriff=%F6ler
One year ago, me too I used it for center pins, but in the meantime I use only Protec CLP anymore. I have 2 of these oilers in my toolcase, one with Protec and one with Ballistol. Ballistol (and now Protec) are the only one lubricants which are accepted here in Germany for center pins. With one exception: your own hair grease (not kidding). When replacing a ceter pin, I pull the new pin through my hair which makes the pin getting "lubricated". And no, I am not the hippie type with greasy long hair.
Compairing Ballistol with Protec I must admit that Protec just works much better. But I never had problems with Ballistol.
Concerning ballance rail and front rail pins: most German techs use deer tallow /stag fat because it´s supposed not to gum, too. I rub a very small portion of it between thumb and index finger and apply only a very very thin layer on the pins. But never do it when the bushings are made of leather. Never apply any liquid or any grease on leather. But here too, there is one exception: you may use "nose fat" (and again: not kidding): sometimes the leather of the hammer butt is too harsh so that the jack comes not back easy enough. Some grease could help, but as mentioned: never apply grease on leather in pianos. So here comes the trick: rub your index finger left or right from your nose. You will feel that this part of your face is a little greasier than other parts. Then rub your finger on the hammer butt leather. And no, I am not the teenage type like these teenagers from Kentucky Fried Movie where teenage faces are used to get oil from.
Gregor
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
Subject: Re: Customer Satisfaction
From: Matthew Todd <toddpianoworks at att.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 03:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message-ID: <836818.69375.qm at web83827.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
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Message: 6
So, I have returned from the dreaded appointment. It actually went pretty fair. I tried several things on the note she was complaining about, but I don't really think it did much. She actually said it improved, but it really didn't. But hey, if she said it did, I wasn't going to argue with her.
The note in question is D-30. The piano is a Baldwin grand, and the D is the note just before the copper wound strings. I did two things to the note.
I spent some time voicing, and then I made sure the knuckle and jack relationship was where it is supposed to be. It was off some.
If you were to play a D Major scale, by the time you hit D-30, it just doesn't quite match the previous notes. It doesn't quite have the "life" the others have. It is not bad. In fact, if she didn't point it out to me (I wish she hadn't!) I wouldn't have noticed it when I tuned it a month ago. There is just a little "thud" when you play it. Or like the note is sounding with just a little less force and volume than the rest. She demonstrated the way it sounds to her by playing a Sonata she had been practicing. In the piece she is repeating the D, and that is how she probably discovered it.
I know this will be difficult to diagnose over the internet, and it is definitely not something severe that calls for another tech, but it is a good learning experience for me, and I did tell her I wasn't going to give up, or call her "picky" or "crazy".
Thanks!
Matthew
Michael Kurta <mkurta at roadrunner.com> wrote:
Matthew:
First, get a clear explanation and demonstration from the customer as to their complaint. Some folks have a hard time explaining so you'll need to help them with this. You need all the information you can get to diagnose accurately. Second try your best to remedy their problem. 95% of complaints are real and noticeable to the player, though there are some which may not be correctable, and others that are imagined.
Failing your efforts to make them happy, call upon another, more experienced tech to help, even if you have to pay for their time. Chalk it up to training as we've all had to do this once in awhile. Sometimes a second opinion will reinforce your solution, and the customer will be satisfied.
My favorite motto is: "The customer isn't always right, but they're always the customer." Good Luck and let us know how it all worked out.
Mike Kurta, RPT
Syracuse chapter
Moving to the Chicago chapter August 1.
Subject: Re: Ballistol and other lubricants
From: Kent Swafford <kswafford at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:10:13 -0500
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926)
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Message: 7
By coincidence, a tech here in Kansas City recently recommended this same oiler to me. I wish the reservoir was a bit bigger, but it appears to be a fine device. Available at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KKHNU0
Kent Swafford
On Jul 4, 2008, at 5:39 AM, Gregor _ wrote:
Using Ballistol as lubricant for action center pins is okay. I have no idea about its ingredients but the reason why nearly all German piano techs use it since generations is that it does not gum after a while. Most of my German collegues use a tool like this for applying only one drop of it:
http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/753674/TropfenoelerAluminium.html?suchbegriff=%F6ler
One year ago, me too I used it for center pins, but in the meantime I use only Protec CLP anymore. I have 2 of these oilers in my toolcase, one with Protec and one with Ballistol. Ballistol (and now Protec) are the only one lubricants which are accepted here in Germany for center pins. With one exception: your own hair grease (not kidding). When replacing a ceter pin, I pull the new pin through my hair which makes the pin getting "lubricated". And no, I am not the hippie type with greasy long hair.
Compairing Ballistol with Protec I must admit that Protec just works much better. But I never had problems with Ballistol.
Concerning ballance rail and front rail pins: most German techs use deer tallow /stag fat because it´s supposed not to gum, too. I rub a very small portion of it between thumb and index finger and apply only a very very thin layer on the pins. But never do it when the bushings are made of leather. Never apply any liquid or any grease on leather. But here too, there is one exception: you may use "nose fat" (and again: not kidding): sometimes the leather of the hammer butt is too harsh so that the jack comes not back easy enough. Some grease could help, but as mentioned: never apply grease on leather in pianos. So here comes the trick: rub your index finger left or right from your nose. You will feel that this part of your face is a little greasier than other parts. Then rub your finger on the hammer butt leather. And no, I am not the teenage type like these teenagers from Kentucky Fried Movie where teenage faces are used to get oil from.
Gregor
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
Subject: Re: Ballistol and other lubricants
From: "Tom Servinsky" <tompiano at bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 07:27:23 -0400
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <BLU116-W3252B809BD5C9EFB2DA20DD49B0 at phx.gbl>
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Message-ID: <001e01c8ddc8$ee586fb0$0201a8c0 at pianocraft>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C8DDA7.66A70D40"
Message: 8
Gregor,
You guys over there are very "earthy" with your remedies. Hair grease, nose grease. Leaves me with some ideas of what else they may use...
Tom Servinsky
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregor _
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Ballistol and other lubricants
Using Ballistol as lubricant for action center pins is okay. I have no idea about its ingredients but the reason why nearly all German piano techs use it since generations is that it does not gum after a while. Most of my German collegues use a tool like this for applying only one drop of it:
http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/753674/TropfenoelerAluminium.html?suchbegriff=%F6ler
One year ago, me too I used it for center pins, but in the meantime I use only Protec CLP anymore. I have 2 of these oilers in my toolcase, one with Protec and one with Ballistol. Ballistol (and now Protec) are the only one lubricants which are accepted here in Germany for center pins. With one exception: your own hair grease (not kidding). When replacing a ceter pin, I pull the new pin through my hair which makes the pin getting "lubricated". And no, I am not the hippie type with greasy long hair.
Compairing Ballistol with Protec I must admit that Protec just works much better. But I never had problems with Ballistol.
Concerning ballance rail and front rail pins: most German techs use deer tallow /stag fat because it´s supposed not to gum, too. I rub a very small portion of it between thumb and index finger and apply only a very very thin layer on the pins. But never do it when the bushings are made of leather. Never apply any liquid or any grease on leather. But here too, there is one exception: you may use "nose fat" (and again: not kidding): sometimes the leather of the hammer butt is too harsh so that the jack comes not back easy enough. Some grease could help, but as mentioned: never apply grease on leather in pianos. So here comes the trick: rub your index finger left or right from your nose. You will feel that this part of your face is a little greasier than other parts. Then rub your finger on the hammer butt leather. And no, I am not the teenage type like these teenagers from Kentucky Fried Movie where teenage faces are used to get oil from.
Gregor
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
Subject: Re: Knowing list members
From: "Tom Servinsky" <tompiano at bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 07:29:04 -0400
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 9
Are you referring to the hand movement not matching anything remotely close to the music?
Tom Servinsky
----- Original Message ----- From: <johndelmore at suddenlink.net>
To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: Knowing list members
Well, I don't know if she tuned the piano or not (did anybody else hear weird 'recording' issues?), but I do know that she has bigger cojones than me to put THAT piece out to the world. I liked the spirit.
John Delmore
---- pianolady50 at peoplepc.com wrote:
This was brought to my attention and does explain a lot.
www.aliciaevans.9k.com
Best to all,
Debbie Legg
Subject: RE: Customizing a piano
From: "Bruce Browning" <justpianos at our.net.au>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:19:36 +1000
To: "'Ed Sutton'" <ed440 at mindspring.com>, "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: "'Ed Sutton'" <ed440 at mindspring.com>, "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org>
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In-Reply-To: <97E213B526E44AA7922C96796D4B0D74 at EdPC>
Reply-To: justpianos at our.net.au, Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
Message-ID: <000001c8ddc7$da438e70$6401a8c0 at BRU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message: 10
Since all this truth has come out about Ballistol I haven't heard an apology
to Alicia. Come on guys, fair is fair!
Bruce Browning
The Piano Tuner
-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf
Of Ed Sutton
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:56 AM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: Re: Customizing a piano
Well...somebody has to say it:
Ballistol (Gun oil) is commonly recommended by major German manufacturers as
an action lubricant.
As recently as June 2008 it was recommended by a well-known American piano
designer in a class in Anaheim.
It is especially recommended to lubricate leather key bushings.
Diluted with alcohol it is used like Protek.
As to any distinct differences between German Ballistol and Hoppes gun oil
(which Alicia used), I cannot speak.
Best regards,
Ed Sutton (flame suit on, as Conrad H. likes to say)
Subject: RE: Ballistol and other lubricants
From: Gregor _ <karlkaputt at hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 13:45:02 +0200
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <BLU116-W3252B809BD5C9EFB2DA20DD49B0 at phx.gbl> <001e01c8ddc8$ee586fb0$0201a8c0 at pianocraft>
In-Reply-To: <001e01c8ddc8$ee586fb0$0201a8c0 at pianocraft>
Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
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Message: 11
Tom,
don´t ask for details. You don´t want to know it really....:-)
Gregor
From: tompiano at bellsouth.net
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: Re: Ballistol and other lubricants
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 07:27:23 -0400
Gregor,
You guys over there are very "earthy" with your remedies. Hair grease, nose grease. Leaves me with some ideas of what else they may use...
Tom Servinsky
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregor _
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Ballistol and other lubricants
Using Ballistol as lubricant for action center pins is okay. I have no idea about its ingredients but the reason why nearly all German piano techs use it since generations is that it does not gum after a while. Most of my German collegues use a tool like this for applying only one drop of it:
http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/753674/TropfenoelerAluminium.html?suchbegriff=%F6ler
One year ago, me too I used it for center pins, but in the meantime I use only Protec CLP anymore. I have 2 of these oilers in my toolcase, one with Protec and one with Ballistol. Ballistol (and now Protec) are the only one lubricants which are accepted here in Germany for center pins. With one exception: your own hair grease (not kidding). When replacing a ceter pin, I pull the new pin through my hair which makes the pin getting "lubricated". And no, I am not the hippie type with greasy long hair.
Compairing Ballistol with Protec I must admit that Protec just works much better. But I never had problems with Ballistol.
Concerning ballance rail and front rail pins: most German techs use deer tallow /stag fat because it´s supposed not to gum, too. I rub a very small portion of it between thumb and index finger and apply only a very very thin layer on the pins. But never do it when the bushings are made of leather. Never apply any liquid or any grease on leather. But here too, there is one exception: you may use "nose fat" (and again: not kidding): sometimes the leather of the hammer butt is too harsh so that the jack comes not back easy enough. Some grease could help, but as mentioned: never apply grease on leather in pianos. So here comes the trick: rub your index finger left or right from your nose. You will feel that this part of your face is a little greasier than other parts. Then rub your finger on the hammer butt leather. And no, I am not the teenage type like these teenagers from Kentucky Fried Movie where teenage faces are used to get oil from.
Gregor
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
Get news, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Check it out!
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