HI Will...
The air is very clean next door here in Maine too (g). Hope you are not getting too wet with all the storms and rain past few days.
Enjoy...and congrats on a job very well done. If you please your customer...it's all worth it.
Marc P. Mailhot
Marco Polo Music
Westbrook, ME USA
--- On Thu, 7/3/08, pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org> wrote:
From: pianotech-request at ptg.org <pianotech-request at ptg.org>
Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1301, Issue 34
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 8:09 PM
Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..."Today's Topics:
1. RE: private-off list (Will Truitt)
2. Re: Customizing a piano (holly quigley)
3. Re: rub on stencil numbers (Avery Todd)
4. rub on stencil numbers (Gerald Cousins)
5. Re: numbering keys (joel a. jones)
6. To Will Truit (erwinspiano at aol.com)
Thanks, Dale – you are a kind soul. I can’t take any credit for it though. This piano had been beating up on me something fierce with the voicing, hours and hours of it. Every time I needled, it would get better, but I felt like I was reaching for something I wasn’t getting. I had a customer in my store who liked the piano, BUT can you…. You know the drill. He had driven up to N. H. from New York, and was staying in a hotel nearby. I sent him away for the evening and tried these techniques which I had read about in an article about Ulrich Gerhard, Steinway London’s chief concert technician. Instant transformation to this utterly gorgeous thing of humbling beauty. As Dr. Frankenstein said, “It’s alive, it’s alive, IT’S ALIVE!!!”.
So thank Ulrich for sharing this tip in his interview.
I just spent the last 3 days up in Dalton, New Hampshire (up in the North Country, where the air is still clean, and sex is still dirty) regulating and voicing a Steinway B rebuilt by my hero Willis Snyder in 1973. What an honor and privilege to work on an instrument done by someone I admire so much and from whom I have learned so much. What a gorgeous piano – really understated and elegant, lots of color yet bright and clear. The melody line just stands right up, and there is no killer octave! Every note sings until the cows come home and go back out again at dawn. Beautiful, clear soft playing. Baldwin hammers from that time that sounded just great on this instrument.
I needled to take the edge of the brightness and pull a bit more sustain out the hammers. I love it when you have a great piano and everything you do just makes it get better and better. You do something and the piano smiles back at you.
I wasn’t there to change the piano – I didn’t want to and it didn’t need it. I only wanted to buff back up the luster that was already there.
The customer was a French piano teacher in her early seventies – great lady. The first morning I was there working, a bear came out of the woods and she stood about 2 feet away from it and fed it some seeds. Beautiful 150 lb. black bear. Of course, a spectacular view of the Presidential Range of the White Mountains in the background.
The customer was thrilled when I was done, and gave me a fat check and a big smile. Life is good…..
Will
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of erwinspiano at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:36 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: private-off list
Hi Will
How refreshing to hear some one speak articulately about voicing,tone & procedure. really good to have you on the list. Excellent descriptions. Watch out some one will ask you teach if you aren't already!!
Best
Dale
-----Original Message-----
From: Will Truitt <surfdog at metrocast.net>
To: 'Pianotech List' <pianotech at ptg.org>
Sent: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 4:48 pm
Subject: RE: Steve Brady's book...
I agree with Allen on the use of the finer grits of sandpaper along with deep needling. On the right piano, it can bring out amazing amounts of color and texture, particularly in the bass and tenor section. I recall a Mason & Hamlin BB with Renner Blues that I voiced in this manner a few years ago. I actually overneedled a bit near the crown in the tenor section, which made the tone very round but a bit fuzzy. After progressing with grits up to 2000 grit, the sound was transformed. The sound shape became much more defined, and the color – chocolaty, velvety textures, oh my! It was a piano that I was selling, and I started calling it the two chord wonder. A player would come in, sit down, play a couple of chords, and start making orgasmic noises….
All that to say that with a piano of a particular tonal character, it will turn a good piano into a piano with a great voice. All this, and sustain by the truckload!
I usually taper off the grits as I progress from the tenor up. Some pianos can sound too antiseptic in the low treble if the grits are too fine. Also, don’t overneedle near the crown in the bass. I don’t know why, but the bass hammers seem to be more sensitive to the needles, so listen carefully as you proceed. But it can bring a great deal of color to the bass as well. Also, I sometimes use a hammer iron where I have buffed the contacting surface to a high and smooth polish. I rub it back and forth over the top of the crown to (cold) iron the felt down. I do this when I am looking for just a smidgen more focus to the attack, but a hot iron would add too much edge.
Allen’s tips are definitely ones that you want to have in your bag of tricks if you want to do really high level voicing and create Beauty in a piano’s voice. Your customers will love you for it.
Will Truitt
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Allen Wright
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 5:48 PM
To: ilvey at sbcglobal.net; Pianotech List; College and University Technicians
Subject: Re: Steve Brady's book...
David,
Speaking of fitting hammers to strings; for years now I've preferred the method where you lift the hammers out of the way, then lay a long strip of bushing cloth over the tops of the reps, drop the hammers back down and carefully slide the action back in; this causes the hammers to block (if letoff is reasonably close) and you can then comfortably, and with very subtle control, lift the hammers to the strings using the piano key - rather than bending over and using a string lifting hook, or pushing up from under the whippen. I find it so much easier to control than either of those two methods. And way easier on the body; doing it from such a relaxed position encourages me to be even more careful, and enjoy the process more.
Collodion is great as a touch-up or refining voicing solution. Often it's used diluted with ether, but that's dangerous stuff, and seems difficult to come buy (perhaps it's very carefully controlled? - not sure) so I recently mixed up some collodion with acetone, and it worked fine. Didn't explode or anything : ) Having used keytop/acetone for many years, my impression of using collodion is that it seems to create a slightly less edgy or brittle quality to the tone than keytop. This may just be subjective impression - I haven't done an A/B comparison; I should, and report back.
I agree with David Love that these hammers are "deep-toned" really vigorously at first (some may require as many as 150-200 deep strokes) to create resilience, but then just require the usual kinds of maintenance or control voicing, usually near or at the strike point (much like NY hammers, really). Another way of describing the effect this gives is to say that the tone goes from very vertical (perhaps what David describes as "swallowed up" and one-dimensional) to a more spread out and horizontal tone, with more timbral and dynamic variety.
All this needling may require several shaping sessions, and finishing using 1200 or even 2000 grit paper will give you super smooth and refined looking hammers, no doubt about it. Do that to Hamburg Renners that are intelligently shaped and needled and you'll create a warm and beautiful sound with nice focused clarity in the attack. It sounds extreme, but it can make a really nice difference.
Allen Wright, RPT
London, England
On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:08 AM, David Ilvedson wrote:
List,
FYI...
In Steve's excellent book, he has interviews with technicians. One fellow, Ulrich Gerhartz, London Steinway, wrote about how he maintains the voicing on his 13 Hamburg Ds...to paraphrase: he starts with deep needling, low in the shoulders. All of the hammers...sometimes below the staple until he is satisfied the shoulder felt has sufficient resiliency. (I would like to know how he determines that resiliency?...at Yamaha/Buena Park, they kept saying I hadn't deep needled enough...;-]...the projection was quite there I guess...) He then files to restore the shape and attack. Maybe a few drops of collodian. (wish I had access to that...?) He finishes up with polishing the hammers from 400 grit to maybe 1200 grit sandpaper. He fits hammers to strings with a hook rather than under the wippen/jack ala Yamaha. I am interested in approaching our Hamburg D in this manner...I was especially interested to read about the deep shoulder
needling as a regular part of the maintenance...apparently, with playing the shoulders get compacted too...
David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA 94044
The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Paul T Williams <pwilliams4 at unlnotes.unl.edu>
To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:49:06 -0500
Subject: RE: Customizing a piano
Dear Alicia
If you haven't gotten it yet...we're all trying to understand your situation and we're trying to give you well intentioned advise on how to be more professional and become a better technician. That's the whole idea behind the list! Many of the technicians on this list have been servicing pianos longer than you've been alive, and they know what they're talking about!. If you can't accept constructive advice, perhaps you should think of another venue in which to be involved.
Paul
What Paul said. You know, there is a piano "tech" group on Myspace that is filled with younger "kids" (I use that term for age, and/or years of experience). They seem to love making snap-judge remarks about makes of pianos, it's a group filled with lively "debate," and tons of innovative ideas no one's ever tried before, like using oil as a lubricant. It might be a more appropriate place for this kind of thing.
People generally post on the ptg mailing list to get actual advice, in the spirit of humility and accepting that there are others (many, many others), who know more than oneself. When someone reminds you of that, it's not because we need proof that you are any good (that's what the RPT exams are for?). This is a grown-up list, (for the most part ;). Which means even when we disagree, many of us (maybe not all), at least try to be polite and professional about it, both in words and tone. As someone else mentioned previously, this is also a public list. Which means whatever vitriol and/or wackiness a person might spew is out there in the internet indefinitely. But it also means anyone who might prefer searching and lurking can poke their heads in here and get the wrong ideas on how to service pianos. Lucky that our older and wiser techs are quick to correct and answer questions on such a public forum.
--
Peace and Light,
Holly Quigley
Associate member (for the time being)
Tom,
Try the hobby type stores. I've found them there in the past.
Avery Todd
On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Tom Servinsky <tompiano at bellsouth.net> wrote:
List
My local Office Depot and Staples have stopped carrying the nice rub-on numbers I use to mark string sizes. They tell me that they are starting to phase out of making the rub-on numbers. Tell me it ain't so!
Anyone have a source of reasonably priced rub-on transfer numbers appropriate for string size markings? I found a few sites on the internet but they wanted a small fortune for there style.
Tom Servinsky
#yiv576700251 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
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FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}
Tom,
I know that Pianotek carries some rub on numbers. Call and ask.
In a pinch, I have also found them at HobbyTown. This is a chain of Hobby shops here on the East Coast
On this weekend of the celebration of Independence Day I am humbled by the continued freedom that this great experiment called the United States of America provides any and all people on this planet. May the Almighty God, Bless America, all my fellow Piano Technicians and the entire industry dedicated to the continuation of the performing musicians instruments.
Gerry Cousins, RPT
cousins_gerry at msn.com
#yiv576700251
List
My local Office Depot and Staples have
stopped carrying the nice rub-on numbers I use to mark string sizes. They tell
me that they are starting to phase out of making the rub-on numbers. Tell me it
ain't so!
Anyone have a source of reasonably priced
rub-on transfer numbers appropriate for string size markings? I found a few
sites on the internet but they wanted a small fortune for there style.
Tom ServinskyBarbara,
The set I have is listed on
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=800.
If you don't have a harbor freight close by, like I have, then other
discount houses might
have something. $15 tops fits my budget.
Joel
Joel Jones, RPT
Madison, WI
On Jul 3, 2008, at 1:42 PM, David Skolnik wrote:
> Barbara -
> I thought you were at the beach! Anyway, one source of these
> "stamps" as they are listed, is the company MSC Industrial
Supply
> Company http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm , though I assume you
> can find them from any of these full service providers - Grainger or
> McMaster Carr, etc. On the MSC home page, click on the Big Book logo
> on the right and go to page 2594. You'll see individual stamps as
> well as sets (at the bottom). The one I have is 3/32", but I would
> probably go with 1/8".
>
> Cheers (plagiarized)
>
> David Skolnik
> Hastings on Hudson, NY
>
>
> At 09:56 AM 7/3/2008, you wrote:
>> Hi David,
>>
>> Hmm, I just did a search on the internet for the steel number
>> punches. Do you use the punches that are numbered separately, or the
>> punch that sort of looks like an ink punch, but isn't. If
you're
>> using the separate punches, what size? I'm not at home right now
and
>> I'd hate to ask the house-sitter to try to measure numbers on keys
>> (if he could even find them....that is, keys or the numbers....).
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Barbara Richmond, RPT
>> not so near Peoria, IL at the moment
Supposed to be off list
Oh Well. No Harm done.
Dale
Hi Will
How refreshing to hear some one speak articulately about voicing,tone & procedure. really good to have you on the list. Excellent descriptions. Watch out some one will ask you teach if you aren't already!!
Best
Dale
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I agree with Allen on the use of the finer grits of sandpaper along with deep needling. On the right piano, it can bring out amazing amounts of color and texture, particularly in the bass and tenor section. I recall a Mason & Hamlin BB with Renner Blues that I voiced in this manner a few years ago. I actually overneedled a bit near the crown in the tenor section, which made the tone very round but a bit fuzzy. After progressing with grits up to 2000 grit, the sound was transformed. The sound shape became much more defined, and the color – chocolaty, velvety textures, oh my! It was a piano that I was selling, and I started calling it the two chord wonder. A player would come in, sit down, play a couple of chords, and start making orgasmic noises….
All that to say that with a piano of a particular tonal character, it will turn a good piano into a piano with a great voice. All this, and sustain by the truckload!
I usually taper off the grits as I progress from the tenor up. Some pianos can sound too antiseptic in the low treble if the grits are too fine. Also, don’t overneedle near the crown in the bass. I don’t know why, but the bass hammers seem to be more sensitive to the needles, so listen carefully as you proceed. But it can bring a great deal of color to the bass as well. Also, I sometimes use a hammer iron where I have buffed the contacting surface to a high and smooth polish. I rub it back and forth over the top of the crown to (cold) iron the felt down. I do this when I am looking for just a smidgen more focus to the attack, but a hot iron would add too much edge.
Allen’s tips are definitely ones that you want to have in your bag of tricks if you want to do really high level voicing and create Beauty in a piano’s voice. Your customers will love you for it.
Will Truitt
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Allen Wright
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 5:48 PM
To: ilvey at sbcglobal.net; Pianotech List; College and University Technicians
Subject: Re: Steve Brady's book...
David,
Speaking of fitting hammers to strings; for years now I've preferred the method where you lift the hammers out of the way, then lay a long strip of bushing cloth over the tops of the reps, drop the hammers back down and carefully slide the action back in; this causes the hammers to block (if letoff is reasonably close) and you can then comfortably, and with very subtle control, lift the hammers to the strings using the piano key - rather than bending over and using a string lifting hook, or pushing up from under the whippen. I find it so much easier to control than either of those two methods. And way easier on the body; doing it from such a relaxed position encourages me to be even more careful, and enjoy the process more.
Collodion is great as a touch-up or refining voicing solution. Often it's used diluted with ether, but that's dangerous stuff, and seems difficult to come buy (perhaps it's very carefully controlled? - not sure) so I recently mixed up some collodion with acetone, and it worked fine. Didn't explode or anything : ) Having used keytop/acetone for many years, my impression of using collodion is that it seems to create a slightly less edgy or brittle quality to the tone than keytop. This may just be subjective impression - I haven't done an A/B comparison; I should, and report back.
I agree with David Love that these hammers are "deep-toned" really vigorously at first (some may require as many as 150-200 deep strokes) to create resilience, but then just require the usual kinds of maintenance or control voicing, usually near or at the strike point (much like NY hammers, really). Another way of describing the effect this gives is to say that the tone goes from very vertical (perhaps what David describes as "swallowed up" and one-dimensional) to a more spread out and horizontal tone, with more timbral and dynamic variety.
All this needling may require several shaping sessions, and finishing using 1200 or even 2000 grit paper will give you super smooth and refined looking hammers, no doubt about it. Do that to Hamburg Renners that are intelligently shaped and needled and you'll create a warm and beautiful sound with nice focused clarity in the attack. It sounds extreme, but it can make a really nice difference.
Allen Wright, RPT
London, England
On Jul 2, 2008, at 12:08 AM, David Ilvedson wrote:
List,
FYI...
In Steve's excellent book, he has interviews with technicians. One fellow, Ulrich Gerhartz, London Steinway, wrote about how he maintains the voicing on his 13 Hamburg Ds...to paraphrase: he starts with deep needling, low in the shoulders. All of the hammers...sometimes below the staple until he is satisfied the shoulder felt has sufficient resiliency. (I would like to know how he determines that resiliency?...at Yamaha/Buena Park, they kept saying I hadn't deep needled enough...;-]...the projection was quite there I guess...) He then files to restore the shape and attack. Maybe a few drops of collodian. (wish I had access to that...?) He finishes up with polishing the hammers from 400 grit to maybe 1200 grit sandpaper. He fits hammers to strings with a hook rather than under the wippen/jack ala Yamaha. I am interested in approaching our Hamburg D in this manner...I was especially interested to read about the deep shoulder
needling as a regular part of the maintenance...apparently, with playing the shoulders get compacted too...
David Ilvedson, RPT
Pacifica, CA 94044
The Famous, the infamous, the lame - in your browser. Get the TMZ Toolbar Now!
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