????????????????? Nothing there. At 06:59 AM 3/4/2007, you wrote: >ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg > > > > > >From: pianotech-request at ptg.org >Reply-To: pianotech at ptg.org >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Pianotech Digest, Vol 1285, Issue 17 >Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 19:47:47 -0700 > >Send Pianotech mailing list submissions to > > pianotech at ptg.org > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > pianotech-request at ptg.org > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > pianotech-owner at ptg.org > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of Pianotech digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: > > Type O (Sid Blum) > > 2. Re: What would Steinway do (hubert liverman) > > 3. RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: > > Type O (Marcel Carey) > > 4. RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: > > Type O (Sid Blum) > > 5. Re: What would Steinway do (David Andersen) > > 6. RE : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, > > was: Type O (Marcel Carey) > > 7. Re: Baldwin Concert Grand (Mike Kurta) > > 8. Weinbach Studio (Mark's Piano Service) > > 9. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: > > Type O (Ron Nossaman) > > 10. Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: > > Type O (PAULREVENKOJONES) > > 11. Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type > > O (RicB) > > >From: Sid Blum <piano at sover.net> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:26:56 -0500 > >> > >>........"The next major factor behind the bridge cap/pin changes > >>is, I think, dimensional changes in the pinblock.".......... > >>Ron N > > > >Okay I'll bite- > > > >Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > > > >Sid > > > > > > > > > > >From: "hubert liverman" <hubertliverman at bellsouth.net> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: What would Steinway do >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:56:03 -0600 > > >In fact, you and Dale should analyze the >house,last shipment,and learn from the Old Piano Elves. >Training the second generation of Pixies could >be problematic. This opens us to a whole new >field of Technology that may somewhat agree with some customer conceptions. > >With respect and humor to everyone, > >Hubert Liverman >Tuner/ tech > > In fact, Dale and I split the last shipment of > fairy dust we got from the Old Piano Elves that > live down in that strange house near that old factory.....ooooooohhhhhh..... >DA > >On Mar 2, 2007, at 8:54 PM, ><mailto:Erwinspiano at aol.com>Erwinspiano at aol.com wrote: > > NAh Nah Nah. It's the magic wood that makes it authentic > Dale >I love it! That is something I can't get my brain around. "Will it > > still be a Steinway?" I guess I'm not too bright but I don't get the > > concept. > > > > David M. Porritt > > > > > >From: Marcel Carey <mcpiano at videotron.ca> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:07:49 -0500 > >It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) > > > >Marcel Carey > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : pianotech-bounces at ptg.org > > > [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] De la part de Sid Blum > > > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 > > > > > > Okay I'll bite- > > > > > > Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > > > > > > Sid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Sid Blum > > > sid at sover.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Sid Blum <piano at sover.net> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:13:08 -0500 > > > >Thought of that as soon as a sent it off. I was picturing a grand. > >Thanks for keeping me on my feet. > > > >Sid > > > >>It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) > >> > >>Marcel Carey > >> > >>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>> De : pianotech-bounces at ptg.org > >>> [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] De la part de Sid Blum > >>> Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 > >>> > >>> Okay I'll bite- > >>> > >>> Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > >>> > >>> Sid > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Sid Blum > >>> sid at sover.net > >>> > > > > > > > >From: David Andersen <david at davidandersenpianos.com> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: What would Steinway do >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 14:24:01 -0800 > > >On Mar 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, hubert liverman wrote: > >In fact, you and Dale should analyze the >house,last shipment,and learn from the Old Piano Elves. > >We have the house completely controlled by our >agents; we've scoured every surface for clues as >to the make-up of the Fairy Dust; and we've got >the Elves in a sub-basement of the Atelier, and >on a "persuasion" program that we've put >together...I'll keep you all posted when they.....start to cooperate. > >Training the second generation of Pixies could be problematic. > >Dude. Please. These are not Pixies. Pixies are >buffoons; they hate pianos; they love clarinets >and banjos...the hell with Pixies. these are Elves---pee--ANNO Elves, sir. > >This opens us to a whole new field of Technology >that may somewhat agree with some customer conceptions. > >Absolutely. My personal goal is to replace >myself as a field technician with one of the >Elves by the end of 2008; people seem to like >them a bit better than bitter, cynical old >geezer pianotechs, for some reason. That >frickin' Elf gets a big tip every time I send him in my place...... > >With respect and humor to everyone, > >Hubert Liverman >Tuner/ tech > >Right back at ya, Hubert..... > >David Andersen >Elf Slavemaster > > In fact, Dale and I split the last shipment of > fairy dust we got from the Old Piano Elves that > live down in that strange house near that old factory.....ooooooohhhhhh..... >DA > >On Mar 2, 2007, at 8:54 PM, ><mailto:Erwinspiano at aol.com>Erwinspiano at aol.com wrote: > > NAh Nah Nah. It's the magic wood that makes it authentic > Dale >I love it! That is something I can't get my brain around. "Will it > > still be a Steinway?" I guess I'm not too bright but I don't get the > > concept. > > > > David M. Porritt > > > > > > > >From: Marcel Carey <mcpiano at videotron.ca> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "'Pianotech List'" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: RE : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- >Long term pitch drop,was: Type O >Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 17:43:18 -0500 > >Sorry Sid, the door was just too wide open for it. > > > > >From my experience, the block would move forward and backward. Maybe > >others would think differently. > > > >Marcel > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : pianotech-bounces at ptg.org > > > [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] De la part de Sid Blum > > > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 17:13 > > > À : Pianotech List > > > Objet : RE : Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch > > > drop, was: Type O > > > > > > > > > > > > Thought of that as soon as a sent it off. I was > > > picturing a grand. Thanks for keeping me on my > > > feet. > > > > > > Sid > > > > > > >It all depends if you're talking about an upright or a grand... :-) > > > > > > > >Marcel Carey > > > > > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > > > >> De : pianotech-bounces at ptg.org > > > [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] > > > >> De la part de Sid Blum > > > Envoyé : 3 mars 2007 16:27 > > > >> > > > >> Okay I'll bite- > > > >> > > > >> Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > > > >> > > > >> Sid > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Sid Blum > > > >> sid at sover.net > > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Sid Blum > > > sid at sover.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mike Kurta" <mkurta at adelphia.net> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Baldwin Concert Grand >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:37:13 -0500 > > Gerald: > From your description of the hammer wear, > it doesn't seem as though they would need > replacing at this point. Reshaping, yes. The > strings breaking at the agraffe would suggest > "work hardening." This condition may be > created by hard playing (and a lot of it) which > makes the strings move up and down, back and > forth which causes the wire to get brittle and > break at the termination point closest to the > hammer--the agraffe. Using too much sustain > pedal will also make the problem worse again, > excess string movement. I suggest replacing > strings as needed and study the habits of the primary player. > Mike Kurta > Syracuse chapter > > >From: "Mark's Piano Service" <mps at usol.com> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "Pianotech" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Weinbach Studio >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 18:37:56 -0500 > >I tuned a Weinbach Studio the other day and >noticed how the pins seemed to be somewhat loose >to me. I had just done a recently rebuilt >Steinway "L" and I'm not sure if the Steinway >had such tight pins that it made the Weinbach >feel loose, or if the Weinbach is known for >loose pins. The Weinbach is seven years old. and >has a DC system installed. I'm not sure of the >exact RH that day. So I'm not sure if that was a significant factor. > > >Mark's Piano Service > > > >From: Ron Nossaman <rnossaman at cox.net> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 15:53:48 -0600 > > > >>Okay I'll bite- > >> > >>Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > >> > >>Sid > > > >Forward and backward, directly in line with the string tension. A > >couple of thousandths of an inch position change can make a > >significant difference in pitch. > > > >Ron N > > > > >From: PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones at aol.com> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech at ptg.org> >Subject: Re: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:35:49 -0600 > >Ron: > >Certainly the dimensional changes you suggest >would create a pitch difference, but what about >the not so inconsequential friction systems of >the front scale: bearing cloth, counterbearing >bar, agraffe or capo, etc. Would the "couple of >thousandths" translate into real pitch change in >the speaking length? Would it account for the >predominantly middle range changes we >experience? Would it explain bearing measurement >shifts after major pitch change? I'd love to hear Jim Ellis chime in on this. > >Paul > >"If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie) > > >In a message dated 03/03/07 19:58:09 Central >Standard Time, rnossaman at cox.net writes: > > > Okay I'll bite- > > > > Tuning pins moving up and down or forward and backward? > > > > Sid > >Forward and backward, directly in line with the string >tension. A couple of thousandths of an inch position change >can make a significant difference in pitch. > >Ron N > > > > >From: RicB <ricb at pianostemmer.no> >Reply-To: Pianotech List <pianotech at ptg.org> >To: pianotech at ptg.org >Subject: Seasonal pitch change: was -- Long term pitch drop, was: Type O >Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 03:37:03 +0100 > >Hi folks > > > >I have a feeling that whats not being taken into account for is > >exactly what one can expect from a given vertical deflection change > >of the string at the bridge. It matters not whether this vertical > >deflection comes from the bridge swelling, or from a soundboard > >rising, or from any combination of these. > > > >The point is that given usual design string deflection numbers, > >usual string lengths and diameters, significant changes in frequency > >due to changes in vertical displacement carry too high a price in > >terms of change in downbearing to be realistic. At least thats what > >it looks like to me. > > > >Anyone interested is calculating change in frequency, downbearing, > >tensions etc for changes in vertical displacement can do so with > >reasonable accuracy using the attached formulas. I worked out all > >this as a result of a correspondance with Alex Galembo a year or so > >back. I needed a way of taking into consideration the elongation of > >the string due to changes in string deflection only before I could > >come in ballpark figures for changes in the other relevant > >parameters to work out this sheet the way I wanted to. I've had it > >looked at by a few folks who've yet to punch any holes in the logic > >or calculations, tho I would be glad to learn of any error made here > >in either. > > > >In anycase... if what I have here is correct or even reasonably > >so... then vertical string deflection as a significant cause of > >pitch change seems to carry to large a price in terms of change in > >downbearing force. As the example shows, a change from 1 mm > >deflection to 2 mm causes downbearing for this single string unison > >to rise to 8 pounds. Figure that out over the entire piano.... If > >you on the other hand calculate withing reasonable downbearing force > >parameters... you end up with quite small changes in pitch. > >Certainly much smaller then can account for the large pitch changes > >we see. > > > >Cheers > >RicB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[] > > > > > >Symbols > >a = Speaking Length >b = Back Length >d = Bridge Deflection >p = tuning pin length >T = Tension >L = String Length > >Initial Conditions >Zero deflection; d0 = 0 >Tension is T0 >L0 = a0 + b0 Wire Ø mm WCS mm^2 E McFerrin E > 0,90 0,64 45000,00 31023,63 >Formulas: > T0 lbs a0 mm b0 mm L0 mm p0 >E is taken as 45000 lbs / mm^2 150,00 150,00000 50,00 400,00 200,00 Hz0 >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > >[] > > >T0 kgs 1218,9515 >68,04 > >d1 mm a1 mm b1 mm L1 mm DL1 Hz1 T1 lbs Sin A1 Sin B1 >1,00 150,003333 50,01 400,01 0,01333 1222,7952 150,95 0,007 0,020 > DHz1 DCents1 DT1 Lbs aa1 ab1 > 3,84 5,450 0,95 0,38 1,15 > T2 lbs >d2 mm a2 mm b2 mm L2 mm DL2 Hz2 DCents2 153,82 Sin A2 Sin B2 >2,00 150,013333 50,04 400,05 0,05332 1234,25 21,591 DT2 lbs 0,013 0,040 > DHz2 3,82 aa2 ab2 > 15,30 0,76 2,29 > > > >T1 kgs T2 kgs Downwards force on the Bridge T1 lbs >68,47 69,77 4,02 > Downwards force on the Bridge T2 lbs > 8,20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Pianotech list info https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > >---------- ><http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2746??PS=47575>Mortgage >rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. 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