At 11:28 PM 7/22/2006, you wrote: >Avery, > >Thank you so much for your excellent advice. You're welcome. >You were right in your guess that I tune aurally. I don't own an ETD >and don't plan to get one until after I pass my aural exam. Then >probably, I might reward myself with one. > > From the sounds of it, I wonder if I don't give my customers enough > warning about the possibility of breaking a string. Do you have > them sign something before you start that they agree to pay for a > broken string and that it wouldn't be your fault if one did break? I've never found that to be necessary. >Or do you just tell them before you start? Yes. >Sam Avery > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mailto:avery1 at houston.rr.com>Avery >To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org>Pianotech List >Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:34 AM >Subject: Re: Story and Clark not tuned for 30 years!! > >Hi Sam, > >I'm going to go ahead and post my thoughts on this before the thread >gets too old. Because you indicate you're pretty new at this, I'm >going to go into some detail and hope that you, and maybe some >others, will find something that will be useful somewhere along the >way. Warning: It's kind of long! > >At 09:12 PM 7/21/2006, you wrote: >>Hello all, >> >>The other day, I tuned an old Story and Clark upright. When I >>opened it, I found the business card of the last tech who tuned it. >>It was dated 07/26/1976, almost exactly 30 years ago. >> >>Norm Larson of South Haven, Minnesota, are you still around? >> >>A gave it a quick inspection, and it appeared to be in decent >>shape. I vacuumed it out for the customer. There didn't appear to >>be any rust on the tuning pins or the strings. Most of the hammers >>didn't have any grooves, and those that did were very slight. The >>soundboard didn't have any cracks. >> >>I didn't dare raise it to pitch because it had been so long since >>it was tuned. > >First, let me say that I normally will not tune a piano "to itself" >unless there's some structural reason not to (very loose pins, very >rusty strings, evidence of previous string breakage, etc.). With >appropriate warnings to the customer about the possibility of string >breakage & their agreement to pay the extra charges involved in >bringing a neglected instrument up to pitch, of course. Your >customer might not be a piano player/musician but he might have >friends who are. I don't want some good musician friend coming over >to play the "just tuned" piano and after hearing it, says, "I >thought you just had this piano tuned!?" There goes my reputation >with that musician! > >Also, if there are children learning to play, it's important for a >piano to be up to pitch. Their ears are being trained as well as >their fingers! > >On the rare occasion that I've tuned a piano to itself, here's the >basic process I used for over 25 years before I started using an ETD. > >The low bass strings on a piano can only be a little flat before >they start sounding very "tubby", so since the bass is usually not >as flat as the middle and treble, I would usually start with low A >(A0) and tune the A's up to A4 and use that as my starting pitch. >You might also want to tune the higher A's just to get an idea if >the treble is appreciably flatter than the middle and lower sections. > >Tune a very quick temperament and do your octaves and unisons from >there. One warning. Using this method (or any other, for that >matter), it's still likely the upper third or so of the instrument >is going to be flat enough to still need two passes even if you're >only tuning it to itself. > >On a normal pitch raise, pulling sharp, if the piano was severely >flat as well as old, after setting the temperament, I might just >tune all the F's, then all the F#'s, etc. (I used an F to F >temperament.) My thoughts on this were that I was spreading out the >tension change more evenly on the soundboard and plate. I don't know >if that's really true or not, but that was why "I" did it that way. > >Then go back and pull in the unisons. I'd usually start with the >bottom temperament note and go up. Then go down from the temperament >tuning the bass. Don't worry about getting a clean unison. They're >going to change anyway. Actually, I'd usually even pull the unisons >in a little sharp because I knew the middle string had already >dropped some. Just pull in the unisons as fast as you can go. The >point here is not wasting time trying to get really clean unisons >because on a severe pitch raise, they're going to change! They're >going to change some in other scenarios also, but that's a 'nuther story! :-) > >When I'm doing a big pitch raise on an old instrument, if more than >one string in the middle broke, then I'd back off and tune it low. >If none broke until the high treble, I'd just go ahead and let them >break and then replace them. I'd also inform the customer that this >is what I'd be doing. > >I'm going to assume that you tune aurally since you didn't mention >how many cents flat the instrument was. >If an instrument that age is severely flat, like 75-100 cents or >more, and I wanted to be cautious, I might not pull it sharp the >first time. Just pull it up to your fork, set a very quick >temperament (1-2 min.) and go. It's going to change anyway! That way >you can get a good idea of how the pins feel and how the strings >feel as they're being stretched. You'll probably eventually run into >an instrument where the strings feel like they've have no more >stretch in them and if you continue, they're going to break. Some >usually will. In a case like that, I'll inform the customer of the >situation, back off the pitch some and then tune it to itself. You >really have no choice, except for a restringing. > >>I just tuned it to itself. It was the most horribly out of tune >>piano I have tuned in my short career. > >Because of what you said here, if you don't already, let me advise >you to get at least a small roll of all the plain wire sizes and all >the tools needed to replace broken strings! I made that mistake on >my first tuning for pay! Needless to say, after I finally found >someone to come in and replace the string for me, I didn't make any >money on that tuning! > >In a case like your's, the first thing I would do is to check some >of the pins on the worst notes to make sure the "horrible >out-of-tuneness" was not caused by loose tuning pins. But because of >what you mention below, it doesn't sound like it was in this case. > >>When I was over, it still sounded terrible to me, but the customer >>was thrilled. He said it was the best he ever heard it sound (he's >>not a piano player). I was honest and didn't pretend that I was >>happy with how it sounded. I told him that it would take several >>tunings to make it sound good. He's having me back in six months to >>give it another tuning. > >I agree with Bob and others on this. Six months is too long. Even >tuning it to itself, you probably had a lot of strings that were too >flat to stay with only one tuning. That's probably why it still >didn't sound good to you. I'd have gone for 1-3 months maximum. > >After a large pitch raise (pulling sharp and going over it 2+ >times), I try to get the customer to have it retuned in at LEAST 1-3 >months! One month is best. Then again in app. 6 months. > >>The pins seemed to twist before they moved, making the instrument >>very hard to tune. When I moved my tuning hammer, the pitch would >>go up, then go down when I released it. > >If the pins are tight in the block, this would be a fairly normal >thing. One can almost always hear the pitch change before you can >feel the pin inside the block! No matter what the pitch does though, >the pin MUST move inside the block! > >>I ended up very carefully applying constant pressure to the tuning >>hammer until I felt the tuning pin turn a little. It worked for me, >>though it took a long time. As far as hammer technique goes, was >>that something you would have done? > >That's basically correct and everyone goes through having to learn >to deal with that to set the strings and pins. Some use a smooth >pull method like you said you did, some use a "jerk" type of method >and still others use an impact hammer. > >One problem you're going to have now though, after doing the "tune >it where it was" tuning, is ever getting him to agree to the extra >expense of getting the instrument up to normal pitch. About the only >way you might could get him to do that now, is if there are children >taking lessons, as I said above. Also, if it ever needs to be played >with any other instrument besides a stringed one, it's not going to >be possible. > >>Also, the piano had a sticker that boasted a 50 year guarantee on >>the sound board. How the heck could Story and Clark make a 50 year >>guarantee on the sound board? They'd have no idea what conditions >>the thing would be kept in. What did they make the thing out of? 2" >>thick plywood? > >I believe Ron N. answered this one very eloquently! Diplomatically, also! :-D > >This is just a way that worked well for me for many years. YMMV. > >Now on a pitch raise, I use my SAT III and start at the bottom and >go up, unisons as I go. Others do it differently. > >>Sam Choy > >Avery Todd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/20060723/0cf7b967/attachment-0001.html
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