Some of the high treble false beats turn out to be sympathetic vibrations from the next [unmuted] octave down, i.e. we are hearing (and seeing on the Tunelab spectrum display) the 2:1 octave beat while we are tuning at a 3:1, 4:1 or 4:2 stretch. Muting the trichords completely, an octave below the false beat, sometimes eliminates the false beat, q.e.d. -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Porritt, David Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:07 AM To: ilvey@sbcglobal.net; An open list for piano technicians Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) If you use the spectrum display of TuneLab you can see the two discrete notes when you get false beats. It's not a shaky single note, it's two notes beating against each other. dp David M. Porritt dporritt@smu.edu -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Ilvedson Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:49 AM To: pianotech@ptg.org Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) There pitch is right in the middle of the vibrato...I've often wondered if a tuning program could measure the up and down of the pitch and calculate the mid pitch. I'm referring to false beats... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, California ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Porritt, David" <dporritt@mail.smu.edu> To: "An open list for piano technicians" <pianotech@ptg.org> Received: 1/11/2006 8:43:56 AM Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) >Of course I neglected to mention in my last post the vibrato factor. >That's one reason the pitch of intervals sung by barber shop groups is >so obvious is that they don't use vibrato. When I hear singers here >vibratoing (what is the gerund of vibrato?) and spanning a minor 3rd I >wonder how you evaluate what their pitch really is! Same for string >players! >dp >David M. Porritt >dporritt@smu.edu >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On >Behalf Of David Love >Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:34 AM >To: 'An open list for piano technicians' >Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) >The string players I know all refer to the piano as the "diabolical >instrument" because of its impure thirds and sixths, and that's without >the profound dissonance characteristic of many keys in a WT. From what >I gather, there is nothing about the impure intervals of the piano that >inspires them to copy it and many of them have no particular keyboard >training to the extent that would have imprinted a sense of color that >they got from relatively less keyboard listening than the attempts to >create "just" intervals on their own instrument. I'm just not sure it follows. >While string players certainly do alter pitch (mostly melodic intervals >rather than harmonic intervals), it seems a bit of a stretch (so to >speak) >to argue that some innate sense of musicality, pitch and harmony is >trumped by the tuning limitations of one particular instrument. >David Love >davidlovepianos@comcast.net >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On >Behalf Of Porritt, David >Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:09 AM >To: An open list for piano technicians >Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) >David: >Even though orchestral instruments have the ability to adjust their >pitch "on the fly" and even though they claim to tune their intervals >"just" I think they are profoundly affected by the pitch memory they >have of intervals on the piano. String quartets and a cappella vocal >groups are famous for making the "just" claims yet it is rarely heard. >Some of the very best barber shop vocal groups manage to pull it off >because they emphasize "ringing the chords" and are the most aware of >their pitches of any musical groups I'm aware of. Here in Dallas there >is a large group dedicated to this music and their just intervals will >really make your spine tingle (but I digress). >Most groups that I've heard, who perform unencumbered by fixed tuned >instruments, tend to place their intervals much like they have heard >them on the piano. Since a cappella choirs tend to learn new music with >the aid of a piano before they go a cappella that's understandable. In >our day that's a more-or-less ET. I'm sure in the classical period the >well temperaments were so fixed in their minds that they played or sang >with those WT intervals in mind. Composers then (even those who had no >piano) would tend to write in and for the keys that they had in their >head. This is why it took a while for ET to become accepted as it >violated people's idea of the pitch in their head. You don't have to >have pitch recognition to have a good sense of interval width. When I'm >tuning, after I've tuned C I can look away from my ETD and while not >using any other pitch source, I can tune C# and it will be amazingly >close and I'm no genius. I think anyone who makes their living in music >can do the same thing. >dp >David M. Porritt >dporritt@smu.edu >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On >Behalf Of David Love >Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:42 AM >To: 'An open list for piano technicians' >Subject: RE: (careful, it is about temperaments) >Very eloquently expressed and I think you make a strong argument. I >agree that the wanderings from the tonic offer a sense of exploration >and tension. >The only issue that argues against the conclusion you draw with respect >to the piano is that the wanderings occur in all the compositions, >symphonies, quartets, i.e., non keyboard music. In these cases it is >the distance from the tonic and the resolve back to the tonic that >creates the tension. >While >most of us are not educated in listening to classical music in a way >that allows us to actually understand as we hear and follow the change >of keys, the composers of that day (and many of the listeners) were. >The ability >to >perceive the journey away from and back to the tonic creates a contrast >without having to rely on the use of unequal temperament to make the >case. >There are no instructions within the scores of the symphonies to play >the outer keys with wider thirds in order to create more tension as the >pieces wandered away from the tonic. Since those options are available >in an orchestra, we have to assume that they were eschewed as >unnecessary, perhaps, undesirable. >That the piano contains these qualities due to the fact that it was >tuned in a certain way doesn't mean that the composers would have >chosen that given some other option. There are many pieces whose >openings are not necessary quiet and consonant and it would seem that >in those cases more remote keys would have been chosen had that effect >been desired. That they weren't in almost all cases suggests strongly >that in spite of the wanderings from the tonic dictated by the >composers overarching sense of composition beyond what the instrument >had to offer, that there choice of tonic keys was limited, not >expanded, by the dissonance of the outer keys. You work with what you >have, but given an opportunity, you may not choose it. >David Love >davidlovepianos@comcast.net >-----Original Message----- >From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On >Behalf Of A440A@aol.com >Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:49 AM >To: pianotech@ptg.org >Subject: Re: (careful, it is about temperaments) >David writes: > >>>Since the predominant choice of keys, as you have outlined, is in 3 >sharps >or less (mostly less) it may also suggest that composers were selecting >keys to avoid the effects of unequal temperaments present in the outer >keys rather than to take advantage of them. << > The "home key" is merely the beginning point. As was pointed out >earlier, in sonata-Allegro form, the composers began in one place, then >began moving farther and farther away from it, going through a variety >of keys in harmonic exploration, before returning to the "home" key. As >certainly as rest is >more >blessed after labor, as water is more satisfying after drought, and love >is >more cherished after lonliness, harmony is sweeter for the dissonance >that precedes it. Braid-White chose to quote Plutarch in his book, >"Music, to create harmony, must investigate discord". >>>The fact that the selection is quite narrow and weighs in heavily on >the >less "colorful" side of the circle of fifths suggests to me that unequal >temperaments certainly did influence choice of keys, but not in the >broader sense of a wider or more "artistic" vocabulary, but rather in >the narrower sense to avoid intervals that on the piano as it was tuned >just didn't sound that good.<< > I see this entirely differently! Beethoven didn't avoid much, >instead, he gained a reputation by writing farther out than anyone >previously had. >Haydn >and Schubert also show their willingness to use all the keys. > If avoidance of dissonance were the aim, the composers would have >stayed >within the home key and sonata form would not have evolved. Instead, >the >use of >"color" is there to create the contrasts necessary to fully engage the >listeners emotions. When Beethoven is using minor 2nds, he is obviously >looking for >dissonance, since that interval is dissonant in ANY key and ANY tuning. > I see the composers using the beginning key to set a relative sense >of consonance, against which the increasingly expressive harmony of >more highly >tempered keys display their own beauty. I call this the "Tight-shoe >theory of harmony". C major feels better after a trek though Ab or >F#. The act >of >resolution is one of carrying the listener to a more consonant place >than where they have been, allowing them to relax. Moving from a >highly tempered key to one less so does this in a physiological sense, >which certainly aids in engaging the mind and emotions. This is a >non-voluntary response to dissonance. > The true art of composition in the classical era was to move the >listener into ever increasing dissonance without it becoming obvious, >then bringing the resolution by moving back into consonance. It is a >delicate art, but causes the listener to become emotionally involved on >a subliminal level. It is this rising and falling level of dissonance >that creates the attraction. >I >suggest that this is the reason that resolutions were never made to a >key that was higher in the circle of fifths, the rise in stimulation >that results from moving into higher dissonance goes against the grain >of resolution. >This is >also >why I believe that keys like B and F# were so difficult to use, because >it is very difficult to resolve back to home in these keys! > I demonstrate this easily enough. On a well-tempered piano, even >with >a >Young temperament with its 21 cent F#-A#, I can begin with C and play a >circle of triads through the octave, (C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-C#-F#-B-E-A-D-G-C) >and 99% of the listeners never consciously register the change of >tempering. >However, >if >I move from C directly to B, or F#, it becomes obvious to almost all >that there is a distinct difference to the quality of sound. > If we listen intellectually, as us tuners are wont to do, we hear >unevenness, but the normal music lovers I have encountered don't. They >are hearing the music, not the tuning. This was brought home by the >response to the >Pathetique we recorded on the Prinz temperament on "Beethoven in the >Temperaments". >By and large, other techs told me how grating the middle section was to >them, yet, I got more positive comments on that passage from music >lovers and >musicians than anything else I have done. I chose this temperament for >this piece because I wanted a passage that used the maximum >expressiveness of WT, which >in this case is the 21 cent third (syntonic comma) in Ab. > We listen as a function of our past. That is where our >expectations come from, and what we must compare all else to. Our 20th >century past is, by and large, equal temperament. However, growth >requires change, and change requires courage. My aim has been to >encourage others to experiment with an open mind. Once that is done, >an individual's choices is informed and valid, >regardless of what direction results, whether it be a totally new >universe or comfortably secure in the status quo. > If I may quote Tolstoy: > "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the >greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most >obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity >of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, >which they proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread >by thread, into the fabric of their lives." > My own life has become much richer for questioning how I tune. I >did have to give up a single-minded attachment to my ET, but it has >been worth >it. >After 17 years of mono-temperament work, the incorporation of a variety >of temperaments greatly increased my appreciation of music. It has >also begun creating a new demand for my services as well as bedrock >loyalty in my customers, new respect around Music row, the town, the >university, and the higher prices I can command, (currently tunings are >$130 and I still have to turn down work). > My whole point is that technicians can make a positive impact in >their lives by broadening their aesthetic sense of harmony, by becoming >familiar with temperament's history and its application. To this end, >I continually ask >myself if I know what I like or do I like what I know. >Regards, >Ed Foote RPT >http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html >www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html > >_______________________________________________ >Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >_______________________________________________ >Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >_______________________________________________ >Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >_______________________________________________ >Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >_______________________________________________ >Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives _______________________________________________ Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives _______________________________________________ Pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC