False Beats / Loose pins

[Porritt, David]

Oh the syllogisms!

David M. Porritt
dporritt at smu.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On
Behalf Of Ric Brekne
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:32 PM
To: pianotech at ptg.org
Subject: False Beats / Loose pins

William,

    Ric,

    Your prounouncement is decidedly untrue.

I beg to differ.  I said that false beats can not be the direct cause of

false beats and I see nothing that has shown that statement to be wrong.


    It would be true if the only variable in creating false beats was
bridge
    pins, but it is not.  There are many other variables.  It could not
    be put
    more succinctly than David L did.

    SOME Loose Bridge pins can cause false beats.
    SOME Poor Soundboard design can cause false beats.
    SOME String deficiencies can cause false beats.

If you are going to use SOME, then you have to include a contributing 
factor.  SOME (thing)  can not be a direct cause or even a determinant 
by itself. By definition if it happens only SOMETIMES then ALWAYS more 
then one contributing factor EVERY time false beats occur.

    It does NOT follow that ALL false beats are caused by anything.

I never said it did... or anything like that, but it is a possibility.


    Your rule of logic is true, but you apply it incorrectly.  When you
    say if
    A, the required implication (and you even spell it out) is: if A
then
    (always) B.  This is not the argument.  A can still cause B, but not
    all the
    time.  Indeed, we can have it both ways.

No, the logic I used is right out of the text book. Nearly word for 
word. There is no such thing as "A can still cause B, but not all the 
time".  If A doesnt cause B all the time... then something else is part 
of why B occurs... ALL the time.

You cant just buzz around it by bypassing the whole thing by using the 
<<some>> arguements above. You have to have a method for which to 
confirm any of those in the first place, and their general nature just 
makes that impossible. Which loose pins ? and under what circumstances 
?  And if their are circumstances needed then it isnt <<just>> the loose

pins at all to begin with... it becomes what Jason mentioned... i.e. if 
<<A and C>> then B

Its pretty simple.  Some bridge pins can simply not be the direct cause 
of false beats unless all pins are. Thats the nature of a <<direct>> 
cause, which is what I questioned in the first place.

So, no.. you can not have it both ways.



    In summary, those that think loose bridge pins can cause false beats
    are not
    arguing "if A then B"  they are suggesting: if A and X,Y,or Z, then
B.


By definition this means that loose pins (alone) can not cause false 
beats.  Which implies directly that there may be another cause that is 
present at all time false beats are present that we havent looked at
yet.

    Cheers,
    William R. Monroe


And of course... none of this even touches on why SOME times false beats

do NOT occur when they... shall we say SHOULD ... hehe.

Cheers back at ya :)

RicB