This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment Hello Farrell and List I often am called to pianos which haven't seen a tuner for many, many = years. Frequently I find them just a tad down. Sometimes I find them a = tone down.... Let's face it - it depends on a multiplicity of factors = not least of which is Humidity, Central Heating, being kept in a lean-to = conservatory, in a stone-built church, a theatre, Opera House, you name = it there are too many combinations out there to come to any reasonable = conclusion. Last week I went to an old friend (a piano, of course!) = which I hadn't seen for about ten years. The owner had put it into = storage three times, had given it to her daughter then the daughter = moved and it went back into storage. Now it is in an old flint built = farm cottage near the river Ouse and I went to tune it again. "Hello my = old friend" I thought "I haven't seen you for a while - and how is this = Collard & Collard upright?" Actually it was just about spot on! So how = can one generalise? I do find some old pianos with up to four turns in = the coil but I am sure that was so originally and not as a result of = long-term bringing up to pitch. I have an ancient Bord WOOD FRAME = upright (French piano) I go to once a year (or longer) and it too stays = in tune quite acceptably. The owner is a singer and the children play = string instruments so they would know if it went out. Amazing! Regards from a blowy and sunny Sussex village Michael G.(UK) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Farrell=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:03 AM Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill 5 cents per year? Quite unreasonable. With only one exception, pianos = that I tune regularly - at least once per year (and most only once per = year) - never need a pitch raise - and if any were 5 cents flat, it = would need a pitch raise. Two cents or less per year would be my = estimate. Do you find pianos that have not been tuned for 10 years to be = 50 cents flat? I find that it takes more like 25 or 30 years (or more) = to go 50 cents flat. Terry Farrell Oh, yeah? Well they laughed at Rodney Dangerfield, too!=20 Okay, maybe it's a not-so-stable piano, who knows? As we go about = tuning, let's all the folks with ETDs experiment a time or two ...=20 How far do you you turn a pin to bring a piano up 50 cents? Let's = say the sucker is only tuned every ten years, falling 5 cents a year = (not unreasonable, Shirley). That makes 10 tunings at 50 cents flat each = time. I'm thinking that's good for about 4 additional coils, minimum ... Let the Cyberspace Electrons fly! It ain't over yet ... the fat lady = is still in the wings, eating wings, awaiting a curtain call.* Alan Barnard Helmut Still On, One Minor Dent, in Salem, MO *You can identify the call of the Western Red-Tufted Curtain by its = swooping hoop, rising half a semitone while the bird lifts its head up = about 135 degrees (Fahrenheit). ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Farrell=20 To: Pianotech Sent: 05/11/2005 8:18:33 PM=20 Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin every year on a stable piano? No = way! Calculate the pitch increase with a 30 degree rotation on a 2/0 = pin - even the 7.5 degree rotation - I suspect you will very quickly = realize your numbers are grossly excessive. Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't think so. Terry Farrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: alan and carolyn barnard=20 To: Pianotech=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: Grist for the Mill We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual changes = in a piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing (can we say = that on TV?) from some folks of the notion that tuning pins turned = counter-clockwise when pianos go flat. Their arguments were logical and = some folks even produced mathematics to demonstrated that pin reversal = is unlikely. BUT ... I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter = meeting (2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic which = suggests that the pins MUST move. See what you think ... Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and = certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through a whole = cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When we bring a flat = string up to pitch, it tends to increase the width of the coil slightly = every time we turn the pin. If the pin is turned one full = revolution--360 degrees--over years of tuning, this would add the = thickness dimension of the wire to the overall coil width and one full = wire wrap to the number of coils.=20 You with me? So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very stable = 1905 Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's be = conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5 degree turn of the pin = was required each year to bring it up to pitch. Now 7.5 degrees is a = fairly small annual adjustment, just a little tweak, actually. Ce n'est = pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn. So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's pin 100 = X 7.5 =3D 750 degrees, more than two full turns. How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more coils = on the pin? I never noticed any. In fact, most seem to have the = original 3 coils standing about as far from the plate as the day it was = strung--unless someone has hammered them in, in which case it's still = only about 3 coils! Pause ... thinkin on that? Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they = stretch, especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to produce = the same pitch, the string tension required would be ever so slightly = less over time. This would have a very slight mitigating effect on the = thought puzzle proposed above. But nowhere near enough to explain 100 = years of flatness, methinks. And ven if the string is stretching, you = would still be adding linear length to the coil every time. =20 I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or more, = would be very common. Think about your own real-world, real-piano = experience. Visualize pulling your tuning hammer through a 30 degree = arc, i.e., 1/3 of a quarter turn. That's still a pretty darned small = once-a-year adjustment. So, I think my estimates here have been very, = very conservative. Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to have a total of 8+ = full coils on every pin if the pin never turned backward. Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m i n g = ! ! !=20 Alan Barnard Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/d6/70/1f/a4/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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